Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cardiff UK
Age: 70
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bear
I fail to understand how forwarding an alternative view to yours indicates that I or anyone else is sanguine about aviation safety. In fact the majority of posts here show that many members of your profession are keen to debate and learn from the events of two weeks ago.
Regards
Nick
I fail to understand how forwarding an alternative view to yours indicates that I or anyone else is sanguine about aviation safety. In fact the majority of posts here show that many members of your profession are keen to debate and learn from the events of two weeks ago.
Regards
Nick
The certification basis is typically based on the experience base of 3 equal HE fragments released simultaneously. It was then to be shown that a probable single HE fragment striking the most critical regions of the aircraft within a defined fore and aft scatter band (typically 3-5 deg) would by virtue of the aircraft design mitigations not necessaily result in a catastrophy.
It would be wrong to presume that was the only criteria in the certification basis since the existance of lower energy but more numerous pieces must also be considered at the same time in a typical burst engine model.
With todays knowlege it is possible to compare design trades using such models similar to the vulnerability assessments made by the military armour designers using a multitude of computer shot trajectories and applying experience based design barriers (redundancies, separation and/or shielding) to the satisfaction of the regulator.
A simple explanation might be that its an application of tried and true design practices acceptable to the authorities while at the same time applying whatever modeling the designer feels appropriate to evaluate design trades between risks. (warning: may involve some statistics)
It would be wrong to presume that was the only criteria in the certification basis since the existance of lower energy but more numerous pieces must also be considered at the same time in a typical burst engine model.
With todays knowlege it is possible to compare design trades using such models similar to the vulnerability assessments made by the military armour designers using a multitude of computer shot trajectories and applying experience based design barriers (redundancies, separation and/or shielding) to the satisfaction of the regulator.
A simple explanation might be that its an application of tried and true design practices acceptable to the authorities while at the same time applying whatever modeling the designer feels appropriate to evaluate design trades between risks. (warning: may involve some statistics)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi Nick, I generally try to stay entirely away from passing judgment on other's posts. I did use the word "nonchalant", but in response to "One Outsider". I think we all have better things to do than get hung up on pet theories (sometimes guilty), or on imagined slights. I will always try not to be rude, or snarky. I thought I was supplying enough caveats with my posts, if not, let me know, and welcome to this thread, as always.
bear
bear
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Double Oak, Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will jump right in and be snide and snarky. Statistics??? Hmmm, looks like on the flight in question and the one whose 5 pilots no doubt realized the decisions they made for the remainder of the flight would/could determine their fate.....looks like the statistics for the flight came out to approximately 100%.
Matched by the 100% success rate of the drivers sustaining no physical damage along with the 400+ others along for the ride.
RagingGretchen, you can be assured that the pilot in command of the 380 will NEVER hear from ANY aviation professionals involved in the investigation, or Qantas Flight Management that the pilots were somehow lacking in their judgement/decision making or aviation skills for their failure to meet a landing time more suited to your liking.
Trust me, the pilots wanted off that jet; they were keenly aware that an order of timeliness was closely involved with their want to see the next sunrise.
Maybe now we can get back to the illuminating discourse on international contract law. My (untrained) contract law opinion is that RR is gonna be in a world of hurt. Sorry to say, because their fabulous RB211 performed almost flawlessly for me in 15 years in the left seat of 757's.
Matched by the 100% success rate of the drivers sustaining no physical damage along with the 400+ others along for the ride.
RagingGretchen, you can be assured that the pilot in command of the 380 will NEVER hear from ANY aviation professionals involved in the investigation, or Qantas Flight Management that the pilots were somehow lacking in their judgement/decision making or aviation skills for their failure to meet a landing time more suited to your liking.
Trust me, the pilots wanted off that jet; they were keenly aware that an order of timeliness was closely involved with their want to see the next sunrise.
Maybe now we can get back to the illuminating discourse on international contract law. My (untrained) contract law opinion is that RR is gonna be in a world of hurt. Sorry to say, because their fabulous RB211 performed almost flawlessly for me in 15 years in the left seat of 757's.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hampshire
Age: 74
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Potential Litigation
There seems to have been quite a lot of speculation on ‘Who pays?’, and an implicit assumption that Rolls-Royce will be held liable for huge damages on some count of negligence.
This assumption to some extent is based firstly, on the issue of the AD, and therefore that ‘Rolls must have known that there was a problem’, and ergo, are culpable, and secondly, the test bed failure of the Trent 1000.
These connections are tenuous. Until we have a clearer understanding of the failure mechanism of the No 2 Engine on the QF032 flight, I believe that it is wrong to conjecture that someone, somewhere, failed to ‘join up the dots’, or, worse, did join up the dots and the result was suppressed. Joining up the dots to predict the future is much harder than joining up the dots to predict the past. Anyone join up the dots to predict 9/11, or the 2008 financial markets’ meltdown?
I also am somewhat uneasy that there is speculation on who will be reaching for the Lawyers. Some of that speculation is coming from a somewhat litigious society (more so than Australia and Europe), where suing for professional malpractice keeps a lot of folk is a very comfortable life style. Doctors engaged in even relatively routine medical procedures are paying insurance premia of upwards of $200,000 a year; and then there is wonderment that health care costs are so high. But although there is some movement to follow a more aggressive path, in my experience the Australians and Europeans tend to keep their counsel until there is a strong case to be answered.
This assumption to some extent is based firstly, on the issue of the AD, and therefore that ‘Rolls must have known that there was a problem’, and ergo, are culpable, and secondly, the test bed failure of the Trent 1000.
These connections are tenuous. Until we have a clearer understanding of the failure mechanism of the No 2 Engine on the QF032 flight, I believe that it is wrong to conjecture that someone, somewhere, failed to ‘join up the dots’, or, worse, did join up the dots and the result was suppressed. Joining up the dots to predict the future is much harder than joining up the dots to predict the past. Anyone join up the dots to predict 9/11, or the 2008 financial markets’ meltdown?
I also am somewhat uneasy that there is speculation on who will be reaching for the Lawyers. Some of that speculation is coming from a somewhat litigious society (more so than Australia and Europe), where suing for professional malpractice keeps a lot of folk is a very comfortable life style. Doctors engaged in even relatively routine medical procedures are paying insurance premia of upwards of $200,000 a year; and then there is wonderment that health care costs are so high. But although there is some movement to follow a more aggressive path, in my experience the Australians and Europeans tend to keep their counsel until there is a strong case to be answered.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GemDeveloper
Well said.
And Qantas has to work with RR and Airbus for a long time into the future.
They will more than likely work it out behind closed doors.
Well said.
And Qantas has to work with RR and Airbus for a long time into the future.
They will more than likely work it out behind closed doors.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gem writes:
I also am somewhat uneasy that there is speculation on who will be reaching for the Lawyers. Some of that speculation is coming from a somewhat litigious society (more so than Australia and Europe)...
I also am somewhat uneasy that there is speculation on who will be reaching for the Lawyers. Some of that speculation is coming from a somewhat litigious society (more so than Australia and Europe)...
Quick question...
Rolls intends to pull new engines back from Airbus, and use them as temporary subs for engines already in service while those engines are being upgraded or fixed.
Once those sub engines have done their duty, are they going back to be sold as new?
Bearfoil writes:
This flight came within a hair of being lost at Sea.
This flight came within a hair of being lost at Sea.
Had the damage to control wiring gone the other way - leaving #1 uncontrollable except for the choice of shutting it down - things might have been much worse.
If the wing had been damaged differently, compromising its strength, things would have been much worse.
This wasn't an "average" flight at all - the PIC was doing a check ride, so you can assume he was at the top of his game. You could also assume that the pilot evaluating him was well rested and very attentive.
Granted, A380 captains are generally A380 captains because they have exhibited the best performance.
But there was a lot of skill in the cockpit when this happened, and it didn't start out as "just another sector" for anyone involved, even before the engine spit a disc.
Had that not been the case, things might have worked out differently.
One can't really say it *would* have been a tragedy, but it's fair to assume that at least one of the major reasons it wasn't a tragedy is because it wasn't a normal sector and that a lot of Qantas' best and brightest happened to be in the pointy end at the moment.
Cheers!
Eight Gun Fighter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Western Approaches
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing I don't get. If RR discovered this problem due to the Qantas failure, it would be logical to assume the engines on the Airbus production lines are unmodified and subject to the same mods as the removed engines.
There is of course a huge difference between Rolls having to pay for some of the consequences of this event through contracts etc. & maintaining relationships with their customers, and the suggestion that somehow they have been negligent on safety grounds. They are not necessarily related at all. Some appear to be getting this issue mixed up.
Well, it appears you may not value my opinion as "one outsider", if indeed you were obliquely referring to me and whatever an "outsider" means, but for me there were not enough caveats to your assertions.
I got the impression you felt sure Rolls were negligent from what you wrote in your posts. Is this not what you intended?
Bearfoil "I thought I was supplying enough caveats"
I got the impression you felt sure Rolls were negligent from what you wrote in your posts. Is this not what you intended?
Usual disclaimers apply!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: EGGW
Posts: 843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They may have well been unmodified, but as some of you are not privy to the finer details of the failure, you may find that there may not be a problem until a certain number of cycles have passed. So, they (RR and the authorities) will look at the failure, build in a safety margin and let them fly on with the appropriate inspections. All engine manufacturers would do the same. Look at that 'nightmare' of an engine the GE90 in the early days. The string of failures resulting in inspections, some every 20 landings until the engine was pulled and the mods were completed. It has now matured into a very reliable piece of kit.
Thankfully our engineering director made a decision we wouldn't take any more new type of a/c until its properly matured. A wise move!
Thankfully our engineering director made a decision we wouldn't take any more new type of a/c until its properly matured. A wise move!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne, ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Age: 74
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R-R Knew Something?
Rollingthunder. Where have you been man? 1266 Posts and you couldn't search and work out that an AD was already in place on the T900 for a possible oil leak and possible compromise of performance and even engangerment to the integrity of the engine.
So, R-R had an updated version for some time now. That is, installed on recent aircraft and on the production line with nearly ready to fly aircraft. They just hadn't updated all the old engines in the installed base yet!
Then, how to supply up to 40 engines to customers aircraft already flying the old version (in questionable performance and safety). Hence the idea to take engines from the production line.
Wake up man. This thread is ages old now. Get up to date!
So, R-R had an updated version for some time now. That is, installed on recent aircraft and on the production line with nearly ready to fly aircraft. They just hadn't updated all the old engines in the installed base yet!
Then, how to supply up to 40 engines to customers aircraft already flying the old version (in questionable performance and safety). Hence the idea to take engines from the production line.
Wake up man. This thread is ages old now. Get up to date!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 74
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The latest Australian media release on the subject.
The Australian
AUSTLN
1 - All-round Country
24
English
Copyright 2010 News Ltd. All Rights Reserved
QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce yesterday failed to provide a cogent explanation of a midair engine
explosion on an Airbus A380 aircraft en route from Singapore to Sydney earlier this month.
`` 'Tiz too arly ter judge waaat dat issue is an' 'oy long it 'ill take ter be fixed,'' Mr Joyce said, in his latest
unsuccessful attempt to account for the mishap.
``It cud be ahn issue wi' de casin' or it cud be an issue wi' de turbo-ines,'' Mr Joyce added, further
confusing reporters standing on the tarmac at Sydney's Kingsford Smith Airport.
Mr Joyce was repeatedly asked to provide an explanation of the incident that did not consist of
apparently meaningless noises.
``Oi don't nu 'oy oi can moike it any clearer for yer,'' he said.
``Back in Oirlan', we alwus say, 'tis as fierce ter leap ter conclusions as so 'tiz ter lead a 'erd av milkin'
cows o'er a peat bog.
``Dese are 'ighly serphistercated modern machines wi' literally millions av movin' parts.
``Tryin' ter work oyt exactly what's gone wrahng is loike tryin' ter count de number av bubbles in a jar av
black stuff -- an' oi'm not blatherin' aboyt engine oil.''
Jim Nailsman, from the Aircraft Engineering and Maintenance Association, said it was time for Mr Joyce
to explain the incident in a way that could be understood, or at the very least get someone else to do it.
``The first thing we heard from Mr Joyce was that `an oil foire or bearin' fail'r cud cause de intermediate
turboine shaft ter sever','' Mr Nailsman said.
``That made no sense because we couldn't work out if `foire' sounded more like `far' or `fire', or maybe
even `for'.
``Then he said something that sounded like, `Whaen de praties are boilin' on de cooker, don't put yisser
Guiness ter close ter de pot, for de wee people 'ill knuk it.'
``And that's about when we gave up.''
But Mr Joyce rejected suggestions he had failed to explain the problem to Qantas customers, staff and
the wider public.
``Qantas is an airline dat places de safety av its pahssengers above al' oother considerashuns,'' he
insisted.
``We don't nade ter be rushin' dis inquiry.
``After all, as my mudder's brah'der Paddy used ter say, de buff av de auld sheep is not on de rafter any
sooner than de buff av de young sheep.''
The Australian is seeking a translation of Mr Joyce's remarks
The Australian
AUSTLN
1 - All-round Country
24
English
Copyright 2010 News Ltd. All Rights Reserved
QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce yesterday failed to provide a cogent explanation of a midair engine
explosion on an Airbus A380 aircraft en route from Singapore to Sydney earlier this month.
`` 'Tiz too arly ter judge waaat dat issue is an' 'oy long it 'ill take ter be fixed,'' Mr Joyce said, in his latest
unsuccessful attempt to account for the mishap.
``It cud be ahn issue wi' de casin' or it cud be an issue wi' de turbo-ines,'' Mr Joyce added, further
confusing reporters standing on the tarmac at Sydney's Kingsford Smith Airport.
Mr Joyce was repeatedly asked to provide an explanation of the incident that did not consist of
apparently meaningless noises.
``Oi don't nu 'oy oi can moike it any clearer for yer,'' he said.
``Back in Oirlan', we alwus say, 'tis as fierce ter leap ter conclusions as so 'tiz ter lead a 'erd av milkin'
cows o'er a peat bog.
``Dese are 'ighly serphistercated modern machines wi' literally millions av movin' parts.
``Tryin' ter work oyt exactly what's gone wrahng is loike tryin' ter count de number av bubbles in a jar av
black stuff -- an' oi'm not blatherin' aboyt engine oil.''
Jim Nailsman, from the Aircraft Engineering and Maintenance Association, said it was time for Mr Joyce
to explain the incident in a way that could be understood, or at the very least get someone else to do it.
``The first thing we heard from Mr Joyce was that `an oil foire or bearin' fail'r cud cause de intermediate
turboine shaft ter sever','' Mr Nailsman said.
``That made no sense because we couldn't work out if `foire' sounded more like `far' or `fire', or maybe
even `for'.
``Then he said something that sounded like, `Whaen de praties are boilin' on de cooker, don't put yisser
Guiness ter close ter de pot, for de wee people 'ill knuk it.'
``And that's about when we gave up.''
But Mr Joyce rejected suggestions he had failed to explain the problem to Qantas customers, staff and
the wider public.
``Qantas is an airline dat places de safety av its pahssengers above al' oother considerashuns,'' he
insisted.
``We don't nade ter be rushin' dis inquiry.
``After all, as my mudder's brah'der Paddy used ter say, de buff av de auld sheep is not on de rafter any
sooner than de buff av de young sheep.''
The Australian is seeking a translation of Mr Joyce's remarks
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The continued insistence by some that this was a disaster narrowly avoided
- I take it from that you are quite sanguine about the whole thing, then? A mere 'stroll in the park'?
- I take it from that you are quite sanguine about the whole thing, then? A mere 'stroll in the park'?
I don't think we can say either, yet. Nor whether 5 super alert Flt Crew made a real difference to the outcome, or whether 2 mere mortal line pilots would have had a good chance of a safe outcome, albeit maybe less tidily.
I've asked twice above (and not expecting an answer yet) whether they were "one (further) system failure" from something much more serious ("disaster"), and if so, were those systems "damaged but hanging on" or fully functional? The lateral and longtitudinal CG issues, were the crew aware of the limits? Where they were in respect of them?
It will make an interesting report when it eventually comes out
NoD
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: FACT
Age: 43
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
refit engines
Everybody will be happy to hear that Lufthansa AG will refit the affected
engines on the DA-IMA with the said modifications.
Important is the fact, they pointed out, that this will happen during ground time....if anyone ever had a doubt.
regards
charlie
//notoc attached//
engines on the DA-IMA with the said modifications.
Important is the fact, they pointed out, that this will happen during ground time....if anyone ever had a doubt.
regards
charlie
//notoc attached//
LH will change the single "old generation" Trent 900 they have.
Another Trent 900 has been changed by LH for further inspection at RR for unspecified reasons. However LH said those were not related to Qantas troubles or SIA's oil stains.
Another Trent 900 has been changed by LH for further inspection at RR for unspecified reasons. However LH said those were not related to Qantas troubles or SIA's oil stains.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nairn, Highland
Age: 85
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 'Conclusion's' of the AAIB report into the 748 're-land/abort' at Stansted in 1998 suggest all may not be well, nor lessons learned?
Regarding the RR turbine engines, Conclusions, 3 (b) (22):
'Effective action to address the suspected causes of the previous HP turbine disc failures and prevent recurrence had not been taken'
A different engine and problem, but....................
Regarding the RR turbine engines, Conclusions, 3 (b) (22):
'Effective action to address the suspected causes of the previous HP turbine disc failures and prevent recurrence had not been taken'
A different engine and problem, but....................
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC
The AAIB report you mention was:
Air Accidents Investigation: 3/2001 G-OJEM
Uncontained failure of the turbine disc
Air Accidents Investigation: 3/2001 G-OJEM
Uncontained failure of the turbine disc
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
jack harr
The Oirish is by Imre Salinsky a writer for the Australian newspaper.
I must admit to having a good laugh too (dahspoyt arf mah orn aretij.)
I must admit to having a good laugh too (dahspoyt arf mah orn aretij.)