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Air India Near Death Incident

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Air India Near Death Incident

Old 18th Feb 2011, 11:27
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Just a thought to an earlier comment about the Airbus alphs floor protection, If the autothrottle is disconnected it is not going to help much.
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Old 18th Feb 2011, 11:51
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Incorrect, Alpha Floor will activate with the ATHR off. Alpha Floor and TOGA Lock can be removed by disengaging the ATHR.
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Old 18th Feb 2011, 12:20
  #183 (permalink)  

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Scary to read post #182 in light of post #183
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Old 18th Feb 2011, 22:48
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Why is it scary? If on an approach the pilot decides to do manual thrust and forgets to add thrust, the speed comes through Vls and hits alpha prot, regardless of whether ATHR is engaged or not the Alpha Floor protection will kick in and give TOGA thrust. If the pilot then disengages the ATHR again then the protection is again removed. It makes good sense.
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Old 19th Feb 2011, 15:05
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Why is it scary? If on an approach the pilot decides to do manual thrust and forgets to add thrust, the speed comes through Vls and hits alpha prot, regardless of whether ATHR is engaged or not the Alpha Floor protection will kick in and give TOGA thrust. If the pilot then disengages the ATHR again then the protection is again removed. It makes good sense.
Not entirely true. If the T/H is armed, and speed is deselected, then the bar on the speed button will illuminate and the thrust levers will advance to maintain selected speed.

If the A/T is disarmed, with insufficient thrust to maintain the approach path, then the jet will stall.
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Old 19th Feb 2011, 16:29
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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and the thrust levers will advance
Are you talking about an Airbus?

If the A/T is disarmed, with insufficient thrust to maintain the approach path, then the jet will stall.
The Airbus can stall for example in severe turbulence but on the average weather day with ATHR off and the thrust levers at idle as the speed passes below Vls, towards Vs, Alpha prot will be met and Alpha Floor will kick in giving toga thrust.

What is T/H? By deselecting speed do you mean physically closing the thrust levers or going managed? What is the bar on the speed button? I don't think you are talking about Airbus.

Please excuse me if I am wrong.

Please read the following taken from Airbus FCOM:


ALPHA-FLOOR PROTECTION
Alpha-floor protection automatically sets the thrust at TOGA thrust, when the aircraft reaches a very high angle of attack.
The Flight Augmentation Computer (FAC) generates the signal that triggers the alpha-floor mode. This, in turn, sets TOGA thrust on the engines, regardless of the thrust lever positions (1.22.30)
The FAC sends this signal when the angle of attack is above a predetermined threshold, that is a function of the configuration.
In CONF3 and CONF FULL, this threshold decreases as a function of the aircraft deceleration rate (down to - 3į).
Alpha-floor is available from lift-off until the aircraft reaches 100 feet RA in approach.

Note : - Alpha-floor is lost, when one of the following combinations of failures occurs :
SFCC1 and FAC2, or
SFCC2 and FAC1, or
Both FCU channels, or
1 EIU, or
Both FMGCs.
- Alpha-floor is lost under alternate or direct flight control law.
- Alpha-floor is lost in engine-out, when slats/flaps are extended.
A/THR ACTIVATION
The A/THR is active when it controls thrust or speed. The position of the thrust lever determines the maximum thrust that the A/THR system can command (except in α-floor condition).
The A/THR
being armed
, is activated :
- when the pilot sets both thrust levers between the CL and IDLE detents (two engines operative)
- when the pilot sets one thrust lever between the MCT and IDLE detents (one engine inoperative).

The A/THR being disconnected, is activated when the pilot pushes the FCU pushbutton while the thrust levers are within the active range, including IDLE position.

Note : When the pilot sets both thrust levers to IDLE position, the A/THR disconnects but, if the pilot pushes the A/THR pushbutton of the FCU, he will simultaneously arm and activate the autothrust. Due to the thrust levers position, IDLE thrust will be maintained.
- when ALPHA FLOOR is activated, regardless of the initial status of A/THR and the position of the thrust levers.

Last edited by BlackandBrown; 19th Feb 2011 at 16:46.
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Old 20th Feb 2011, 14:14
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Yes BlackandBrown... I was writing about the Boeing.

In the simulator, I demonstrate a coupled approach with the A/T disconnected and thrust set at about N1 50%. It's an eye opener... even in a simulator.

I also demonstrate a coupled approach with the A/T armed, but speed deselected, with thrust levers idle. As speed approaches target the A/T will advance to maintain selected speed.
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Old 20th Feb 2011, 14:38
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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My point was in response to the comment alpha floor function on the Airbus.
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Old 21st Feb 2011, 19:39
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Indian do not like expats...

AI and IC pilots do not like expats for sure. Read this..

Second pilots? union also alleges partiality to expats - Hindustan Times

Air India prefers to hire foreigners, Indian pilots? union complains - Hindustan Times

imagine the NYC-DEL and all other flights without expat drivers...
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 19:21
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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I am all for the sacking of the PIC of the alleged incident if the investigation proved his incompetence leading to a highly dangerous situation.

Having said that, one cannot discount the " 15 posts " of fame syndrome pertaining to this whistle blower...the self aggrandizing motivation with a hint of closet heroism.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 10:50
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Another Indian Pilot with forged documents

The Times of India on Mobile

CHENNAI: The Directorate-General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has revoked a woman pilotís licence alleging that she used forged papers to get her airline transport pilot licence (ATPL), which is mandatory for an aircraft captain.

On January 11, Indigo pilot Captain Parminder Kaur Gulati made a rough landing at Goa airport. When the plane flew back to Delhi, its nose wheel developed a snag. Investigations faulted Gulatiís landing technique. She used the nose wheel to touch down instead of using the rear landing gear. She was grounded. Further investigations showed that she had used the wrong technique several times.

"We have revoked her licence. The pilot seems to have obtained an ATPL by submitting forged documents. We are going to file a police complaint," director-general of civil aviation Bharat Bhushan said. The DGCA is probing how she got her ATPL after having failed the examination seven times.

Pilots aspiring to become captains must log 1,500 flying hours and pass an examination that comprises papers in navigation, metrology and radio aids. While metrology is an oral test, the other two have written and oral components.

Pilots have to submit the log of flying hours, medical certificate and other documents to apply for ATPL, a tough examination conducted by the DGCA once in three months.

Bharat Bhushan said the airline could not be faulted for employing the pilot since she had an ATPL licence.
Asked what the airline was planning to do to prevent such incidents, Indigo Airlines president Aditya Ghosh said, "As an airline, we completely rely on DGCA. We will follow any instruction from the regulator."

Sources said touts in Delhi often help pilots speed up the process of getting a licence. "We are not sure if they still function as the DGCA has started to monitor the ATPL paperwork," an official said. The regulatory authority is now checking if any agent helped Kaur get the licence.

A senior pilot said it was puzzling how Kaur managed to land on the nose wheel. "A flight comes in to land with its front tilted down but the pilot lifts the nose wheel as the aircraft is about to land to allow the rear wheel to touch down. The nose wheel is not designed to take the full load of an aircraft that comes in to land," he said.
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Old 5th Mar 2011, 00:17
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the copilot was a 200 hour wizard that had his father bribe the director of flight operations...I heard that a couple thousand dollars/euros/pounds goes a long way in India
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Old 7th Mar 2011, 08:45
  #193 (permalink)  
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don`t be surprised if you see a 777 crash on the news, nor the 787. I have watched some Indian news reports on youtube and they said indian pilots did not have the experience landing in low visibility. That country is very cheap!
 
Old 7th Mar 2011, 12:59
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Flying into and out of TLV

As an SLF butting in; BOAC mentioned earlier in this thread that...

"A low-level level off is by no means unusual and needs to be carefully briefed due to this. It can be common in Tel Aviv. It is easily handled as a crew."

Why are there low-level level offs, why are the difficult and given that I fly out of TLV a great deal, why are they common at TLV given that you usually take -off towards the sea?

Thanks
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Old 30th May 2011, 10:15
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Misquoted facts....plz get them rite before such serious allegations

Just joined the forum and this is my first post....Browsing thru the archieves i come up on this thread and am shocked to see the extent to which facts have been misquoted.
To start with i would like to put forward some glaring inconsistencies in the discussion here!!!!
1) The incident was reported on email to the flight safety dept. upon arrival in JFK.

2)Air India have a very elaborate process of DFDR monitoring and frequent calls from flight safety are not rare.

3)Also Air India do have a safety reporting policy (anonymous reports included)

4)The flight safety dept. infact was critized in the mangalore crash report for being too harsh and overly punitive on erring pilots.esp for hard landings!!!

5)THE CREW INVOLVED WERE COUNCELLED ON THEIR ARRIVAL TO MUMBAI.
THIS WAS FOLLOWED UP BY CORRECTIVE SIM TRAINING SESSIONS.

Although this in no way absolves the crew of their actions,the above clarifications are for those maligning the country and the company based on inadequate ,incorrect reporting of facts.

P.S -flight crew are even called to fltsafety for switching off recirc fans while enjoyin a smoke.thats the extent to which they go!!


Also to clarify,
QUOTE from 777 FCOM

""A/T supports stall protection if armed (even if the A/t is disconnected).When speed decreases to near stick shaker activation,the A/T automatically activates and advances thrust to maintain minimum maneuvering speed(approx the top of amber band)""
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Old 31st May 2011, 00:40
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Don't worry too much Avfreak. I think most sensible people know that many sorry characters here were on a self aggrandizing trip. The subcontinent with its inherent problems of inexperienced crew adds cadavers to the jackals and hyenas circling around to boost their egos in this sorry industry where many " adventurers " lack self esteem.
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