Pilot arrested in EHAM.
drunk?
I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0
Why are you defending the guy? If he was voer the limit then I'm sorry, guilty.
Would you defend a drunk driver in the same way?
Would you ddefend this guy if, just if, he'd had an accident with hundreds of casualties?
While I might not be a profesional pilot I exepct thos upfront not only to have a professional licence but to have a professional attitude
Why are you defending the guy? If he was voer the limit then I'm sorry, guilty.
Would you defend a drunk driver in the same way?
Would you ddefend this guy if, just if, he'd had an accident with hundreds of casualties?
While I might not be a profesional pilot I exepct thos upfront not only to have a professional licence but to have a professional attitude
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Amsterdam is a hot-spot for drunken colleagues so it seems...
I remember that earlier in July 2009 a KLM 777 captain was fired because he drank at least 12 bottles of beer less than 12 hours before a flight to Dar Es Salaam and was caught by KLM security just before take off. They measured a substantial amount of alcohol (0,99 promille). He was subsequently fired by KLM but quite easily managed to turn that around in the Haarlem court of justice. His contract was not very explicit on consequences of such an act and that worked in his favour. The guy is flying again for KLM with a promise he'd never drink alcohol during his years of active duty.....
All in all passengers suffer as they're lives are being being put at risk, so why not make it explicit in the contract. I love a drink but to me these acts are criminal (not to forget sloppy from KLM points-of-view). Only listen to all of us when some dronken bastard caused a drink-drive accident and killed an innocent person. Let's not analyze this too much but simply condemn it.
I remember that earlier in July 2009 a KLM 777 captain was fired because he drank at least 12 bottles of beer less than 12 hours before a flight to Dar Es Salaam and was caught by KLM security just before take off. They measured a substantial amount of alcohol (0,99 promille). He was subsequently fired by KLM but quite easily managed to turn that around in the Haarlem court of justice. His contract was not very explicit on consequences of such an act and that worked in his favour. The guy is flying again for KLM with a promise he'd never drink alcohol during his years of active duty.....
All in all passengers suffer as they're lives are being being put at risk, so why not make it explicit in the contract. I love a drink but to me these acts are criminal (not to forget sloppy from KLM points-of-view). Only listen to all of us when some dronken bastard caused a drink-drive accident and killed an innocent person. Let's not analyze this too much but simply condemn it.
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Would you ddefend this guy if, just if, he'd had an accident with hundreds of casualties?
So .19 he is OK and quite capable but .23 he is a threat to humanity.
The comparison is the 31mph in a thirty. The guy is safe at 30mph but not at 31 mph.
But there has to be a cutoff point somewhere and its a lesson to us all that the innocent drink or two the night before may have us unknowingly over the limit the next morning.
Is there a cheap self test kit around
Pace
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Perhaps the airlines could and should shed light on the subject to their crews about each countrys' tolerance as it relates to BAC. Some countries are zero while some are .02.
A good question risen in a previous post... are there testers available to the public to avoid potential problems.
A good question risen in a previous post... are there testers available to the public to avoid potential problems.
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AnthonyGA
Fortunately, McDonald's doesn't impose a limit, so it shouldn't be a problem for this individual in the future.
FWIW the tiredness I’ve experienced conducting certain duties at certain times of the day would possibly be more degrading on my ability to perform a safe operation as opposed to being 0.02 over the limit.
I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0
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Golfbananaham,
0.0% is unenforcable due to normal body processes like digestion that generate tiny amounts of blood alcohol. Hence the 0.02% BAC limit to take this into account. This is effectively a zero tolerance limit; nothing lower makes scientific sense as some teetotalers would be considered repeat offenders due to their metabolism.
I am wondering about the motive of the person that tipped off the police. If the breech is as tiny as this, with someone working on the wrong side of the circadian rythm, to me it does not indicate problematic alcohol consumption in the sense that impairment due to alcohol. I would rate the jet lag to be more of an operational issue.
Sounds like somewone with an axe to grind, either personal or against the company/pilot group whatever.
It is a technical breech of the law, and probably one that could have been prevented with better understanding of how the body deals with alcohol, but compared to some other cases a storm in a teacup. The police cannot not fine the guy as the reading shows him over the limit and every case is a high profile case, but whether this is a prime example of resources put to good use, I seriously doubt.
Bigger fish to fry than this.
0.0% is unenforcable due to normal body processes like digestion that generate tiny amounts of blood alcohol. Hence the 0.02% BAC limit to take this into account. This is effectively a zero tolerance limit; nothing lower makes scientific sense as some teetotalers would be considered repeat offenders due to their metabolism.
I am wondering about the motive of the person that tipped off the police. If the breech is as tiny as this, with someone working on the wrong side of the circadian rythm, to me it does not indicate problematic alcohol consumption in the sense that impairment due to alcohol. I would rate the jet lag to be more of an operational issue.
Sounds like somewone with an axe to grind, either personal or against the company/pilot group whatever.
It is a technical breech of the law, and probably one that could have been prevented with better understanding of how the body deals with alcohol, but compared to some other cases a storm in a teacup. The police cannot not fine the guy as the reading shows him over the limit and every case is a high profile case, but whether this is a prime example of resources put to good use, I seriously doubt.
Bigger fish to fry than this.
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It ain't that good...about as accurate (sometimes) as a recent Florida radar speeding case.
In this instance, the defendant questioned the accuracy of the radar 'gun' so...the judge adjurned the court to the courthouse front lawn, and upon further testing, an oak tree was 'clocked' at 83mph.
Case dismissed, forthwith.
In this instance, the defendant questioned the accuracy of the radar 'gun' so...the judge adjurned the court to the courthouse front lawn, and upon further testing, an oak tree was 'clocked' at 83mph.
Case dismissed, forthwith.
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Golfbananajam and soullimobo
He was over the limit. Yes. He has made a mistake and will face some consequences for that.
But, and this is important, no accident will happen because the Captain has 0,23 promille.
I can throw in 100 professional pilots of which 50 has the same amount in a simulator and no one would be able to tell who are over the limit.
There are way more dangerous threats to the public than this. However, a pilot who's dead tired and call in sick for that will never be commended for "being professional". He will be frowned upon by his company and ridiculed in the press; "Lazy pilot cause schedule disruptions".
I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.
He was over the limit. Yes. He has made a mistake and will face some consequences for that.
But, and this is important, no accident will happen because the Captain has 0,23 promille.
I can throw in 100 professional pilots of which 50 has the same amount in a simulator and no one would be able to tell who are over the limit.
There are way more dangerous threats to the public than this. However, a pilot who's dead tired and call in sick for that will never be commended for "being professional". He will be frowned upon by his company and ridiculed in the press; "Lazy pilot cause schedule disruptions".
I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.
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Originally Posted by SOULLIMBO
Amsterdam is a hot-spot for drunken colleagues so it seems...
I remember that earlier in July 2009 a KLM 777 captain was fired because he drank at least 12 bottles of beer less than 12 hours before a flight to Dar Es Salaam and was caught by KLM security just before take off. They measured a substantial amount of alcohol (0,99 promille). He was subsequently fired by KLM but quite easily managed to turn that around in the Haarlem court of justice. His contract was not very explicit on consequences of such an act and that worked in his favour. The guy is flying again for KLM with a promise he'd never drink alcohol during his years of active duty.....
All in all passengers suffer as they're lives are being being put at risk, so why not make it explicit in the contract. I love a drink but to me these acts are criminal (not to forget sloppy from KLM points-of-view). Only listen to all of us when some dronken bastard caused a drink-drive accident and killed an innocent person. Let's not analyze this too much but simply condemn it.
I don't know why I bother but I feel un overwhelming urge to respond to that nonsense post. he topic is about a Delta guy but you make it into a KLM deal
First, if you do a search you'll see a lot of these incidents. LHR springs to mind in the not to recent past (united and NW I believe) and just last month a UPS guy got caught at WAW. So these incidents are not limited to AMS.
Second, the guy at KLM. KLM has very clear language in their CAO (CLA) however they still have to comply with labour law. In this particular incident you mention the guy was indeed able to overturn his firing(I don't know on which grounds). However KLM offered him a substantial cash amount to leave on his own account, which he took.
If you have such an insight perspective, you should also mention that KLPD had a random alcohol test just last month and off all the guys checked none were found to be intoxicated. Also, when it comes to KLM's "sloppy policy" mention the MAD ( medicine, alcohol and drugs) campagn.
I guess it's more fun though to come on this board and generalize and pretend you know something others don't and blast an airline which you obviously have an axe to grind with!!
Being intoxicated while flying is flat out wrong, however, we as pilots are a mirror image of society. There will always be guys that have a problem but also guys that have a case of bad judgement! we are just humans after all!
In almost all cases the pilots involved are fired, try and mirror that on society!
Btw thanks for the moderator into making this a real quote, uhh how do I do this myself??
Last edited by flyburg; 15th Sep 2010 at 18:01.
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Why are you guys defending the guy?
Were you in the same situation and feel sorry for him? Im sorry, but if you
worked hard enough to become an airline pilot you have to be smart enough to stay away from alcohol 12 hrs before your report time and keep it safe.
You cant? too bad, you shouldnt be flying.
if it's chronical, than you should seek profesional help.
0.23 is already too much. In Dubai, we have zero for both flying and driving and I dont see any problem. Ive been random tested a few times along the years and it was always zero, although I had drinks the night before but stopped 12 hrs before my report time.
Every individual's metabolism is diffrent so for some of us 8 or 10 hours is enough to get ridd of the booze from your system. In my company they made it 12 hrs (which is belived to be enough for most of us) to be on the safe side.
Were you in the same situation and feel sorry for him? Im sorry, but if you
worked hard enough to become an airline pilot you have to be smart enough to stay away from alcohol 12 hrs before your report time and keep it safe.
You cant? too bad, you shouldnt be flying.
if it's chronical, than you should seek profesional help.
0.23 is already too much. In Dubai, we have zero for both flying and driving and I dont see any problem. Ive been random tested a few times along the years and it was always zero, although I had drinks the night before but stopped 12 hrs before my report time.
Every individual's metabolism is diffrent so for some of us 8 or 10 hours is enough to get ridd of the booze from your system. In my company they made it 12 hrs (which is belived to be enough for most of us) to be on the safe side.
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FWIW the tiredness I’ve experienced conducting certain duties at certain times of the day would possibly be more degrading on my ability to perform a safe operation as opposed to being 0.02 over the limit.
0.0% is unenforcable due to normal body processes like digestion that generate tiny amounts of blood alcohol. Hence the 0.02% BAC limit to take this into account.
Nor does the 0.02 limit mean that anything below it is safe or free of impairing effects.
I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.
I'm reminded of the experiment I saw in which an airline pilot with tens of thousands of hours was blindfolded during a flight while another pilot put the aircraft through a few simple, harmless maneuvers. The airline pilot was then asked to describe the movements of the airplane. Of course, he was completely wrong—sensations cannot be trusted in flight. But he seemed very surprised by that. It's important to understand that even if a pilot has a million hours of experience, the effects of things like alcohol, fatigue, disorientation, etc. do not change, because the human body does not change. No matter how much a pilot might want to believe that the last beer he had has no effect on his flying, it may still have an effect.
Each time this subject comes up, the tone of the discussion gives the very, very strong impression that pilots are more interested in being free to drink than they are in the safety consequences of drinking. I'm sure journalists visiting the forum get the same impression. I hope it's an incorrect impression.
I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring. The preoccupation seems to be with preventing pilots from reaping the consequences of their alcohol consumption, rather than with preventing impaired pilots from flying.
The only safe level of alcohol in the blood is zero. Anyone who doesn't believe that may one day be in for a very big and unpleasant surprise, and no amount of heated argument to the contrary here can change that.
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Quote from above.
The only safe level of alcohol in the blood is zero. Anyone who doesn't believe that may one day be in for a very big and unpleasant surprise, and no amount of heated argument to the contrary here can change that.
All very good but please tell me why someone who has never had a drink in their life should be jailed for the small amounts of alcohol that the body produces during the digestion of food.
The limit is set at the level it is to take account of this, so rather than coming out with this zero limit rubbish please try to understand the subject because the fact is the limit in practice is as close to zero as to make no difference.
The only safe level of alcohol in the blood is zero. Anyone who doesn't believe that may one day be in for a very big and unpleasant surprise, and no amount of heated argument to the contrary here can change that.
All very good but please tell me why someone who has never had a drink in their life should be jailed for the small amounts of alcohol that the body produces during the digestion of food.
The limit is set at the level it is to take account of this, so rather than coming out with this zero limit rubbish please try to understand the subject because the fact is the limit in practice is as close to zero as to make no difference.
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It seems every time this subject comes up AnthonyGA jumps on his hobby horse and rides in for another battle against the evil alcohol.
Nothing like placing someone on a pedestal just so they can be knocked off it again.
And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.
I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring.
And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.
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Substance Abuse By Professionals
Quote:
I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring.
It happens elsewhere.
Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.
Now look at pilots: The very nature of the job makes many of us easy targets to become binge drinkers. Exhausting schedules, long duties, short layovers, night turns, working more nights a month than the moon, ULR rest in the "coffins", cranky wives at home (pretty, comparitively happy crew looking for a party when away)... It all adds up.
Now look at the UAE: Its a ZERO blood alcohol limit to drive your car, however you can climb in a cockpit with 400+ people in the back with a .020 blood alcohol level.
That means you're illegal to drive yourself to work, but legal for the flight to JFK... go figure.
T
I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring.
It happens elsewhere.
Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.
Now look at pilots: The very nature of the job makes many of us easy targets to become binge drinkers. Exhausting schedules, long duties, short layovers, night turns, working more nights a month than the moon, ULR rest in the "coffins", cranky wives at home (pretty, comparitively happy crew looking for a party when away)... It all adds up.
Now look at the UAE: Its a ZERO blood alcohol limit to drive your car, however you can climb in a cockpit with 400+ people in the back with a .020 blood alcohol level.
That means you're illegal to drive yourself to work, but legal for the flight to JFK... go figure.
T
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only in holland
according to the dutch papers it would seem that soullimbo has got his facts right. really an amazing feat isn't it. party all night, show up drunk for work and then receive a very generous sum for doing so! whats your problem flyburg? sounds like a common case of wooden shoes, wooden heads, wooden listen to me!
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if you have any alcohol at all in your system AND you are tired, you should not be flying at all, as the combination of the two is deadly.
And the effects of alcohol on any intellectual or physical activity are also very easy to study and understand, and there's nothing magic about flying that sets it apart from other such activities in this respect.
I wonder how many other people, if breathalysed at the start of their work day would be ridiculously past the limit airline pilots are required to meet, and 99.9% do, due to a few too many glasses of vino the night before. Some of them, shock horror, might even have safety critical responsibilities.
I just love the modern, political-correct way, that when anyone dares to voice mitigating circumstances, or try to add some balance to the outrage from the holier-than-though brigade, they are accused of "defending drunk pilots" etc. No one has ever defended drunk pilots. I've never even seen or heard of a drunk pilot on duty. That's drunk BTW, not blowing to some arbritrary limit, but effectively zero, imposed by a state.
Rules are rules, fair enough, but let's keep things in perspective.
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AnthonyGA
I've read every post in every thread on this topic since December 2003 - http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...g-new-law.html - and totally disagree.
There have, I concede, been some idiotic comments along the lines you mention - just as each thread attracts idiotic assertions that a pilot proved to be over the legal limit by even a tiny amount was 'drunk'. However, the overwhelming majority of professional pilots have adopted a responsible and professional approach when the issue has been discussed - in stark contrast to the ill-informed and absurdly melodramatic comments far too often expressed by others who let their vivid imaginations run riot.
golfbananajam
Then either you have a poor memory or you weren't very good at your air law studies.
The UK legal limit is not, and never has been, zero.
"albeit they were a while ago"
When was that?
Until the 30th March 2004, the UK did not have a legal limit.
Before that, the UK law was that no member of an aircraft’s crew (or LAME or ATC officer) shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair his/her capacity to so act.
.
Each time this subject comes up, the tone of the discussion gives the very, very strong impression that pilots are more interested in being free to drink than they are in the safety consequences of drinking. I'm sure journalists visiting the forum get the same impression. I hope it's an incorrect impression.
There have, I concede, been some idiotic comments along the lines you mention - just as each thread attracts idiotic assertions that a pilot proved to be over the legal limit by even a tiny amount was 'drunk'. However, the overwhelming majority of professional pilots have adopted a responsible and professional approach when the issue has been discussed - in stark contrast to the ill-informed and absurdly melodramatic comments far too often expressed by others who let their vivid imaginations run riot.
golfbananajam
I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0
The UK legal limit is not, and never has been, zero.
"albeit they were a while ago"
When was that?
Until the 30th March 2004, the UK did not have a legal limit.
Before that, the UK law was that no member of an aircraft’s crew (or LAME or ATC officer) shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair his/her capacity to so act.
.