UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai
SNS3Guppy, thanks (as usual) for the well-sorted reply. I imagined that redesigning the aft pressure bulkheads and adding ramps, et cetera, were probably already discarded notions given the development of the front-load. O but for the availability of a rear ramp and remote pallet latches...
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Originally Posted by SNS3Guppy
Whereas the aft pressure bulkhead on the B747 is a critical item, one isn't going to modify it and put in a ramp.
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it seems there was nearly another one
Cargo hold of Chinese airliner catches fire - UPI.com
Cargo hold of Chinese airliner catches fire
GUANGZHOU, China, Sept. 13 (UPI) -- The cargo hold of a China Southern Airlines plane after passengers had boarded at an airport in Guangzhou, China, airline officials said.
No one was hurt in the 8 a.m. Monday incident, which preliminary findings concluded was caused by "combustibles" in the cargo hold of the plane being loaded at Gungzhou Baiyun International Airport in Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong, the Chinese state-run news agency Xinhua reported.
Officials refused to name the type of aircraft or number of passengers on board Flight CZ3533, which was scheduled to fly to Qingdao City in Shandong province.
Cargo hold of Chinese airliner catches fire
GUANGZHOU, China, Sept. 13 (UPI) -- The cargo hold of a China Southern Airlines plane after passengers had boarded at an airport in Guangzhou, China, airline officials said.
No one was hurt in the 8 a.m. Monday incident, which preliminary findings concluded was caused by "combustibles" in the cargo hold of the plane being loaded at Gungzhou Baiyun International Airport in Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong, the Chinese state-run news agency Xinhua reported.
Officials refused to name the type of aircraft or number of passengers on board Flight CZ3533, which was scheduled to fly to Qingdao City in Shandong province.
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Cargo jettison. It seems quite simple.
A bit tricky on a nose loader!
The containers, when loaded, might be anywhere from a couple thousand up to twelve thousand pounds each. We have crews of people loading them on flat level ground so it would be difficult (to say the least) for a single person or two to push them out the door while the plane is in flight. Seems as if 400+ MPH winds buffeting against the doorway may add a bit of resistance too.
Then you have the rollers on the floor. If those get heated they're going to distort. Once they get distorted you're not going to be able to move anything on them.
And even if you were able to push the containers out, the doors are in front of the wing. If you manage to miss the wing I doubt you'd miss the horizontal or vertical stabilizers.
On most aircraft (in most common load configurations) the crew wouldn't be able to make it back to the door opening to begin with so that pretty much shoots the idea down right there.
Don't forget this one, too !
A pilot of an aircraft shall not allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight unless the pilot has taken reasonable precautions to ensure the dropping of the object does not endanger persons or property.
Gotta be sure !!
Totally impractical, this thread is dissolving into the absurd, which in view of the serious nature of the disaster is a pity.
Goodnight ( again )
91.235 Dropping of objects
A pilot of an aircraft shall not allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight unless the pilot has taken reasonable precautions to ensure the dropping of the object does not endanger persons or property.
Gotta be sure !!
Totally impractical, this thread is dissolving into the absurd, which in view of the serious nature of the disaster is a pity.
Goodnight ( again )
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As SLF I think of pax flights. How often and what are the causes of hold fires? What are we NOT allowed to put in the hold, but OK as carry on? (eg Li-Ion batteries??). I have never seen a restriction such as this, but use common sense myself. How often do dangerous items end up in the hold? How big an issue is this?
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Airdropping is a complex and exact science, guys. (Been there, done it, got the tee-shirt). Not something that's done in the heat of the moment, so to speak.
Let's get back to feasibility and reality.
Let's get back to feasibility and reality.
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One would hope that instances when forbidden DGoods are carried on passenger aircraft are nil. The system that polices the items that reach the hold both as passenger baggage and cargo is strong and the opportunity for unproved items slipping through the net very low.
This however is dependent on the individuals responsible for ensuring that the system works and do the job correctly, honesty in the identification of items by the shipper and origin, and training to ensure that the responsible individual is trained and qualified.
ignorance of the regulation or lack of know age when declaring content of shipment, releasing cargo or any item going onto any aircraft is No excuse and the full order of law should be applied against them not complying and endangering life.
This however is dependent on the individuals responsible for ensuring that the system works and do the job correctly, honesty in the identification of items by the shipper and origin, and training to ensure that the responsible individual is trained and qualified.
ignorance of the regulation or lack of know age when declaring content of shipment, releasing cargo or any item going onto any aircraft is No excuse and the full order of law should be applied against them not complying and endangering life.
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GCAA Announces the recovery of Digital Flight Data Recorder From UPS6 Boeing 747 400
Last edited by Awl flyer; 14th Sep 2010 at 10:15.
744F Cockpit Door?
Does anyone know if UPS has cockpit doors on their 744F's?
The 744F's & BCF's I have flown didn't, just a curtain, which is open most of the time.
So smoke originating from a cargo fire on the main deck, can come up the stairs or through the floor from the main deck to the upper deck, and migrate forward into the cockpit completely unhindered.
On passenger aircraft, the nowadays-required Flight Deck Security Door seals the cockpit pretty well.
That could help keeping most smoke originating from the cabin out of the cockpit.
For those that don't know; freighters, as opposed to passenger aircraft, are not required to have a reinforced Flight Deck Door, to stop terrorists or other bad guys from coming up front. The reason is simple; weight and cost.
Just wondering if it would have made a difference...
The 744F's & BCF's I have flown didn't, just a curtain, which is open most of the time.
So smoke originating from a cargo fire on the main deck, can come up the stairs or through the floor from the main deck to the upper deck, and migrate forward into the cockpit completely unhindered.
On passenger aircraft, the nowadays-required Flight Deck Security Door seals the cockpit pretty well.
That could help keeping most smoke originating from the cabin out of the cockpit.
For those that don't know; freighters, as opposed to passenger aircraft, are not required to have a reinforced Flight Deck Door, to stop terrorists or other bad guys from coming up front. The reason is simple; weight and cost.
Just wondering if it would have made a difference...
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Is it possible to modify the aircraft to slightly over pressure the cockpit so that smoke does not enter. This is done in armoured cars tanks etc and stops NBC particles entering.
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smoke barrier door
Hello Mariner
Don't know if UPS has, don't think they have, but our fleet of 400F has the same upper deck layout as mentioned in your message.
the upper deck entry door is the smoke barrier door, as well ...
FCOM V2. Sec.1. directs it must be closed during all phase of flight when aircraft is in motion.
Can't find this in the FCOM but as I can recall curtain must be opened during TO CLB APP and LDG it's a plakard on the wall next to the curtain
BRGD
Awl
Don't know if UPS has, don't think they have, but our fleet of 400F has the same upper deck layout as mentioned in your message.
the upper deck entry door is the smoke barrier door, as well ...
FCOM V2. Sec.1. directs it must be closed during all phase of flight when aircraft is in motion.
Can't find this in the FCOM but as I can recall curtain must be opened during TO CLB APP and LDG it's a plakard on the wall next to the curtain
BRGD
Awl
Last edited by Awl flyer; 14th Sep 2010 at 12:22.
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The containers, when loaded, might be anywhere from a couple thousand up to twelve thousand pounds each. We have crews of people loading them on flat level ground so it would be difficult (to say the least) for a single person or two to push them out the door while the plane is in flight.
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“To stay airborne for more than 30 minutes after the fire was first noticed is a pretty long time” says Georg Fongern with astonishment, himself an Airbus pilot with Lufthansa and representative of the international airline pilot's association IFALPA.
After the crash of Swissair flight 111 in September 1998 which has been caused by cockpit fire, pilot procedures regarding fire and smoke in the cockpit had been fundamentally changed. “If there was a landing opportunity, which the UPS pilots had, then one doesn't care about the cause of the fire, but lands the plane as soon as possible” according to Fongern.
After the crash of Swissair flight 111 in September 1998 which has been caused by cockpit fire, pilot procedures regarding fire and smoke in the cockpit had been fundamentally changed. “If there was a landing opportunity, which the UPS pilots had, then one doesn't care about the cause of the fire, but lands the plane as soon as possible” according to Fongern.
"It must be stressed that for smoke that continues or a fire that cannot be positively confirmed to be completely extinguished, the earliest possible descent, landing, and EVAC must be done.
If a smoke, fire or fumes situation becomes uncontrollable, the flight crew should consider an immediate landing. Immediate landing implies immediate diversion to a runway. However, in a severe situation, the flight crew should consider an overweight landing, a tailwind landing, an off-airport landing, or a ditching."
..I have copied it out of the 744 QRH section C/L intro.
this is how airplane manufacturer wants as to act in case of Smoke, Fire or Fume
the crew of UPS 6 made a possible earliest descent, indeed, but was not able to make a landing dew to smoke in the cockpit, ... I feel a respect to decisions they have made and as a pilot realizing they were on the most safe plan of action.
Only investigation will tell as of other factors affected their flight
all other speculations seems to me to be pointless and only investigation can reveal that amount of Human Factor involved not any other of the aviators in the whole world.
Last edited by Awl flyer; 14th Sep 2010 at 14:39.
Smoke Barrier Door
Awl flyer,
The Smoke Barrier Door between the main deck and upper deck won't do much to stop smoke migrating upward, in my opinion.
The curtain, weather open or closed, won't stop smoke.
Plus, if a fire burns underneath the upper deck (from what I read in this thread the fire could have started in front of the wing), it could burn through the floor and allow smoke on the upper deck. Plus there are many pressure relieve panels between Main and Upper deck, allowing smoke to move up.
Slightly over pressurizing the Cockpit might help keeping smoke out. But in that case some kind of door would have to be installed.
A complication would be relieving pressure between Cockpit and Upper & Main deck in case of decompression.
I think the consensus here is that you cannot 100% prevent undeclared DG in freight. Fact of life.
And fighting a fire on the freight deck of an aircraft, between pallets, is a lost battle, unless you get there at the very beginning. Even if you do have supernumerary crew for it.
So the main thing you need to do is get on the surface, ASAP. 10-15 minutes are the numbers I hear.
And then prepare for the case where you won't be able to see anything.
PF; Prepare the nav set up immediately, while you can still see. Closest airport with an ILS, set it up in the FMS and select direct, engage LNAV. Dial in IAA and set up a descent to it. Let the A/P do the work.
PM; do as much from the QRH while you still can.
And switch to guard, because every tower and center has it and perhaps you won't be able to switch frequencies later on.
Plan an auto land with max auto brakes. Configure in time, if you suspect you will lose systems.
Visualise your escape route from the Cockpit beforehand.
If you think you won't make it to an airport and you are over water; a slow descent for the last 500' for a ditching, and lots of luck.
The Smoke Barrier Door between the main deck and upper deck won't do much to stop smoke migrating upward, in my opinion.
The curtain, weather open or closed, won't stop smoke.
Plus, if a fire burns underneath the upper deck (from what I read in this thread the fire could have started in front of the wing), it could burn through the floor and allow smoke on the upper deck. Plus there are many pressure relieve panels between Main and Upper deck, allowing smoke to move up.
Slightly over pressurizing the Cockpit might help keeping smoke out. But in that case some kind of door would have to be installed.
A complication would be relieving pressure between Cockpit and Upper & Main deck in case of decompression.
I think the consensus here is that you cannot 100% prevent undeclared DG in freight. Fact of life.
And fighting a fire on the freight deck of an aircraft, between pallets, is a lost battle, unless you get there at the very beginning. Even if you do have supernumerary crew for it.
So the main thing you need to do is get on the surface, ASAP. 10-15 minutes are the numbers I hear.
And then prepare for the case where you won't be able to see anything.
PF; Prepare the nav set up immediately, while you can still see. Closest airport with an ILS, set it up in the FMS and select direct, engage LNAV. Dial in IAA and set up a descent to it. Let the A/P do the work.
PM; do as much from the QRH while you still can.
And switch to guard, because every tower and center has it and perhaps you won't be able to switch frequencies later on.
Plan an auto land with max auto brakes. Configure in time, if you suspect you will lose systems.
Visualise your escape route from the Cockpit beforehand.
If you think you won't make it to an airport and you are over water; a slow descent for the last 500' for a ditching, and lots of luck.
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thank you, Mariner...
I'm just trying to show the facts as they appear in the Boeing aircraft docs. I’m not here to argue with anyone. I’m positive thinking, same like you while reading and posting on this thread.
100% agree with you. You made a very professional note on how to handle Smoke Fire or Fume situation. The only thing to add is 10 to 12 deg. pitch UP compensated with PWR during ditching but this is just a technique. Quite unusual comparing with the normal landing but looks like to be right recalling as it was done on the A320 while ditching on Hudson.
That was a point of discussion a couple of days ago with a friend of mine … I realy wouldn’t want to bore you with all details but we finished with the fact that to make any part of the hull being more pressurized than other is against the Physic Law. The only way to do what you're saying is to make airflow patterns inside the hull by opening or closing AFT Outflow Valves and having FWD OFLW VLV properly working (B747 doesn’t has FWD but 737 has).
What is your opinion on this?
regards
Awl
I'm just trying to show the facts as they appear in the Boeing aircraft docs. I’m not here to argue with anyone. I’m positive thinking, same like you while reading and posting on this thread.
100% agree with you. You made a very professional note on how to handle Smoke Fire or Fume situation. The only thing to add is 10 to 12 deg. pitch UP compensated with PWR during ditching but this is just a technique. Quite unusual comparing with the normal landing but looks like to be right recalling as it was done on the A320 while ditching on Hudson.
Slightly over pressurizing the Cockpit might help keeping smoke out. But in that case some kind of door would have to be installed.
What is your opinion on this?
regards
Awl
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Military radios have a Guard button. Press or turn it and the radio goes to 243MHz. No channeling required, no visual contact with the panel. I always wondered why civilian radios don't have such a feature for instant 121.5.
Many times I would have liked to have it, or a button for the transponder. Nowadays we have it for the ELT at least, although if we have the old ELT it does not do much.
Many times I would have liked to have it, or a button for the transponder. Nowadays we have it for the ELT at least, although if we have the old ELT it does not do much.
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Just a thought;
I know the MD-11F has a "cabin air off" switch.
When pushed it shuts off all airflow to the main deck, all the air from the packs is fed to the cockpit and courier station only.
This provides a sustained flow of clean air and aids in keeping smoke out of the cockpit, and even aft of the courier station smoke barrier.
Surely this should be possible in the 747F?
The cockpit door itsself has two blow out panels which open into the cockpit, they are hinged within the door and are operated (released) by vacuum latches.
Bearing in mind the difference in volume between the cockpit and the remainder of the pressure vessel.
A windshield blow out will have the entire volume of the pressure vessel passing though the opening of the door, whereas a cabin window blow-out will require only the cockpit volume to be relieved.
Ifix
I know the MD-11F has a "cabin air off" switch.
When pushed it shuts off all airflow to the main deck, all the air from the packs is fed to the cockpit and courier station only.
This provides a sustained flow of clean air and aids in keeping smoke out of the cockpit, and even aft of the courier station smoke barrier.
Surely this should be possible in the 747F?
The cockpit door itsself has two blow out panels which open into the cockpit, they are hinged within the door and are operated (released) by vacuum latches.
Bearing in mind the difference in volume between the cockpit and the remainder of the pressure vessel.
A windshield blow out will have the entire volume of the pressure vessel passing though the opening of the door, whereas a cabin window blow-out will require only the cockpit volume to be relieved.
Ifix