BA pax tried to halt 777 take-off after taxiing error
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Dear 411A,
do you remember the "Cpt" who almost burnt down a B747 ( catchword APU ) in the UK and subsequently was laid off?
The "Cpt" who has flown with improper licence for an EASA operater, means illegaly in the UK / Europe?
Would you say that such a "Cpt" is entiteled to blame others in regards to safety standards?
Sorry but it's just ridiculous to read your postings about safety, BA crews and your general UK bashing, especially in the light of above mentioned "Cpt".
do you remember the "Cpt" who almost burnt down a B747 ( catchword APU ) in the UK and subsequently was laid off?
The "Cpt" who has flown with improper licence for an EASA operater, means illegaly in the UK / Europe?
Would you say that such a "Cpt" is entiteled to blame others in regards to safety standards?
Sorry but it's just ridiculous to read your postings about safety, BA crews and your general UK bashing, especially in the light of above mentioned "Cpt".
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I'm paid by the hour. 
And, what's more, the company still makes a handsome profit, and...no complaints from the head shed, either.
do you remember the "Cpt" who almost burnt down a B747 ( catchword APU ) in the UK and subsequently was laid off?
The "Cpt" who has flown with improper licence for an EASA operater, means illegaly in the UK / Europe?
Would you say that such a "Cpt" is entiteled to blame others in regards to safety standards?
Sorry but it's just ridiculous to read your postings about safety, BA crews and your general UK bashing, especially in the light of above mentioned "Cpt".
The "Cpt" who has flown with improper licence for an EASA operater, means illegaly in the UK / Europe?
Would you say that such a "Cpt" is entiteled to blame others in regards to safety standards?
Sorry but it's just ridiculous to read your postings about safety, BA crews and your general UK bashing, especially in the light of above mentioned "Cpt".
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sunny11410
I believe that it was a Tristar rather than a B747. The accused did admit it on PPRuNe although, if I remember correctly, there were mitigating circumstances.
Dave
I believe that it was a Tristar rather than a B747. The accused did admit it on PPRuNe although, if I remember correctly, there were mitigating circumstances.
Dave
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May I take a different angle.
I can't find any discussion here mentioning why the cabin crew did not alert the flight deck by a company SOP alert function?? I assume that as the pax concerned with the departure point, was a BA Engineer, on a staff positioning ticket, he would therefore be known by the crew as such.
Now, I am thinking here, in my company/aircraft (sorry 411A but I dare to use my experiences to form a basis for discussion which ironically, you have aswell) if a crew member needs to alert the flightdeck to impending doom, they press the emergency call button to flightdeck. I accept a random pax is hardly going to invoke a split second reaction to press the button regardless, however a known qualified engineer who works on on type for BA must have more 'clout'?? I have not read the report, but did the cabin crew consider alerting flightdeck with said similar function?
I have been informed rather embarrasingly by the senior once on backtrack whilst turning in the end circle (wow I used full length) to inform me a pax could see fluid draining from the wing. I was able to just see it from pushing my head to the DV window and realised it was from the NACA overflow duct for the fuel surge bay . . . ooops. Thanks to a pax and good CRM - yes CRM we, as a team, stopped the incident from being taken into the air . . .
So, in this modern world of new age aviating, I claim at least one 'cock up' of mine/ours, has been resolved by team work where ALL crew are encouraged to play a role as the TEAM. So my experience if only minor in comparison is a proof of the concept of 'speaking up' to your superior.
I am left thinking that if I had possesed the attitude of a minor few on here, my Senior cabin Staff would have probably said to the pax "oh its fine - the captain knows exactly what he is doing" . . . . . Sadly the truth is, often he does not . . . thats human surely?
So to me this 'concept' goes beyond those in the flightdeck???? Isn't that what the 'new age aviating' preaches these days??
I can't find any discussion here mentioning why the cabin crew did not alert the flight deck by a company SOP alert function?? I assume that as the pax concerned with the departure point, was a BA Engineer, on a staff positioning ticket, he would therefore be known by the crew as such.
Now, I am thinking here, in my company/aircraft (sorry 411A but I dare to use my experiences to form a basis for discussion which ironically, you have aswell) if a crew member needs to alert the flightdeck to impending doom, they press the emergency call button to flightdeck. I accept a random pax is hardly going to invoke a split second reaction to press the button regardless, however a known qualified engineer who works on on type for BA must have more 'clout'?? I have not read the report, but did the cabin crew consider alerting flightdeck with said similar function?
I have been informed rather embarrasingly by the senior once on backtrack whilst turning in the end circle (wow I used full length) to inform me a pax could see fluid draining from the wing. I was able to just see it from pushing my head to the DV window and realised it was from the NACA overflow duct for the fuel surge bay . . . ooops. Thanks to a pax and good CRM - yes CRM we, as a team, stopped the incident from being taken into the air . . .
So, in this modern world of new age aviating, I claim at least one 'cock up' of mine/ours, has been resolved by team work where ALL crew are encouraged to play a role as the TEAM. So my experience if only minor in comparison is a proof of the concept of 'speaking up' to your superior.
I am left thinking that if I had possesed the attitude of a minor few on here, my Senior cabin Staff would have probably said to the pax "oh its fine - the captain knows exactly what he is doing" . . . . . Sadly the truth is, often he does not . . . thats human surely?
So to me this 'concept' goes beyond those in the flightdeck???? Isn't that what the 'new age aviating' preaches these days??
Last edited by CaptAirProx; 9th Sep 2010 at 14:52. Reason: Add a bit extra
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I accept a random pax is hardly going to invoke a split second reaction to press the button regardless, however a known qualified engineer who works on on type for BA must have more 'clout'?? I have not read the report, but did the cabin crew consider alerting flightdeck with said similar function?
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Basil
a full stop, hard tiller over and then turn into turning circle
A full stop? Shurely shomething wrong there?
Missed that on 114. Just can't understand full tiller on a stopped aircraft then apply (a lot of) power.
A full stop? Shurely shomething wrong there?
Missed that on 114. Just can't understand full tiller on a stopped aircraft then apply (a lot of) power.
Doing it is very time consuming, and a total pain in the ****.
Strange procedure, but true. I would go for the intersection any time.
AD
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Slickster,
Thanks for that. Well perhaps this is something BA should look into. With my operator we encourage interaction with the staff the other side of the door no matter that they have been told 'seats for take-off'. Clearly after this point it has to be pretty signifcant in their opinion.
If I got a 'ding' just setting the power up or not long after, I would stop. If it was close to V1 . . . hmmmm leave that to consider,when it actually happens. (obvious noises/vibrations/smells/indications would affect this)
Infact I hear of a medium turboprop operator that had to go around because a local pax kept telling the cabin crew it was the wrong island they were landing at . . . . she gave in eventually and called the flightdeck. . . . they went around and flew to the correct one!
411A has a point with regard to BA, however his apparent attitude and 'modus operandi' appears to suggest that he would dis-approve of interference from such people. Unless I have miss-interpreted his posts. But hey, I recognise I am human and we all interpret personal behaviour differently.
So 411A can we perhaps agree that BA like all operators have something to learn from each other, and maybe you therefore, have something to learn to???
Thanks for that. Well perhaps this is something BA should look into. With my operator we encourage interaction with the staff the other side of the door no matter that they have been told 'seats for take-off'. Clearly after this point it has to be pretty signifcant in their opinion.
If I got a 'ding' just setting the power up or not long after, I would stop. If it was close to V1 . . . hmmmm leave that to consider,when it actually happens. (obvious noises/vibrations/smells/indications would affect this)
Infact I hear of a medium turboprop operator that had to go around because a local pax kept telling the cabin crew it was the wrong island they were landing at . . . . she gave in eventually and called the flightdeck. . . . they went around and flew to the correct one!
411A has a point with regard to BA, however his apparent attitude and 'modus operandi' appears to suggest that he would dis-approve of interference from such people. Unless I have miss-interpreted his posts. But hey, I recognise I am human and we all interpret personal behaviour differently.
So 411A can we perhaps agree that BA like all operators have something to learn from each other, and maybe you therefore, have something to learn to???
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411A I have enjoyed many of your previous posts and agreed with many of them. You obviously have a wide experience going back to the 707 days and before. However you disappoint me in this thread with your extreme bias that makes you look ridiculous and destroys your credibility.
You appear desperate to knock BA's safety record and the comparison with Air France is ludicrous. BA's forerunner BOAC had a hull loss in the 1960s when a Boeing 707 came apart in midair. BA long haul have not had a fatality since then. The only long haul hull loss since the 1960's was the 777 which as you well know was a very rare and hitherto unknown engine fault that was not the fault of BA or the pilots.
When another airline takes off or lands by mistake on a taxiway there are a few pages on Pprune. When BA takeoff from the intended runway one intersection further down than they intended all the BA critics come out of the woodwork and use this incident to attack everything they don't like about BA.
Incidentally I have lined up in the Caribbean from an intersection on several occasions and thought the runway remaining seemed quite short. These were when the aircraft was very light as in the St Kitts incident and there was only about 10 seconds from "power set" to Vr and we lifted off with about half the runway remaining.
The St Kitts pilots certainly made a serious mistake and many on this forum seem to want to see them hung drawn and quartered for it. However the same mistake was also made by several other airlines yet the posters have not expressed any desire to have these pilots punished. One of these other aircraft was a 737. In this instance air traffic told the aircraft he was not where he thought he was at which point he backtracked.
If anyone is genuinely interested in aviation safety they might ask the following questions:
With this error being made so frequently why did the airport not have marker boards by the intersection?(They went up pretty quickly after the incident).
If one of the controllers knew the 777 was not at the intersection that the pilot thought and said he was at why did the controller not say anything? Is this not negligence?
There are rumours that at the start of the takeoff roll the two controllers had a conversation that implied they had doubts the aircraft would be able to get airborne. This also demonstrates a serious lack of CRM and safety culture.
At the end of the day the Captain is responsible for the error and has carried the can and has been demoted. However the airport authorities seem to have assisted in lining up the swiss cheese holes like an expert lining up the squares of a rubik cube.
You appear desperate to knock BA's safety record and the comparison with Air France is ludicrous. BA's forerunner BOAC had a hull loss in the 1960s when a Boeing 707 came apart in midair. BA long haul have not had a fatality since then. The only long haul hull loss since the 1960's was the 777 which as you well know was a very rare and hitherto unknown engine fault that was not the fault of BA or the pilots.
When another airline takes off or lands by mistake on a taxiway there are a few pages on Pprune. When BA takeoff from the intended runway one intersection further down than they intended all the BA critics come out of the woodwork and use this incident to attack everything they don't like about BA.
Incidentally I have lined up in the Caribbean from an intersection on several occasions and thought the runway remaining seemed quite short. These were when the aircraft was very light as in the St Kitts incident and there was only about 10 seconds from "power set" to Vr and we lifted off with about half the runway remaining.
The St Kitts pilots certainly made a serious mistake and many on this forum seem to want to see them hung drawn and quartered for it. However the same mistake was also made by several other airlines yet the posters have not expressed any desire to have these pilots punished. One of these other aircraft was a 737. In this instance air traffic told the aircraft he was not where he thought he was at which point he backtracked.
If anyone is genuinely interested in aviation safety they might ask the following questions:
With this error being made so frequently why did the airport not have marker boards by the intersection?(They went up pretty quickly after the incident).
If one of the controllers knew the 777 was not at the intersection that the pilot thought and said he was at why did the controller not say anything? Is this not negligence?
There are rumours that at the start of the takeoff roll the two controllers had a conversation that implied they had doubts the aircraft would be able to get airborne. This also demonstrates a serious lack of CRM and safety culture.
At the end of the day the Captain is responsible for the error and has carried the can and has been demoted. However the airport authorities seem to have assisted in lining up the swiss cheese holes like an expert lining up the squares of a rubik cube.
Last edited by suninmyeyes; 9th Sep 2010 at 18:42.
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...and willingness to think outside the box, on occasion, but it won't always happen
A typical c*ck-up from the start...and they still did not notice.
Is anyone really surprised?
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411A I have enjoyed many of your previous posts and agreed with many of them.
Now...
When BA takeoff from the intended runway one intersection further down than they intended all the BA critics come out of the woodwork and use this incident to attack everything they don't like about BA.
Perceived arrogance, on the part of many of the specific FD crew that have been met on numerous occasions...both on duty, and off.
The exact same arrogance that is displayed (to this day) by FD crew from AA...American Airlines.
It has a common source, namely...
'Our procedures are never suspect, we are the best.'
AA found out with their A300-600R, that their policies and procedures are not only suspect, but totally deficient, in many respects.
BA?
Likewise, although the BA folks are not quite so arrogrant, in my opinion.
A small credit to the BA flight deck crew..
So, we are left with the following (IMO)
BA.
Some
crappy procedures, however...extremely pleasant FD crew down route.
AA.
Not only cr*p procedures (A300-600R, sans rudder/vertical fin, all die...pilot actions responsible, make no mistake
), but the largest hull loss record amongst US flagged airlines...not an especially envious record.And yes, I will continue to mention AA, because....of the GROSS neglegence displayed by the AA B757 FD crew at Cali, Colombia...so long ago.
Last edited by 411A; 9th Sep 2010 at 20:18.
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This incident has nothing to do with BA or procedures.
This should be a lesson for us all that no matter how robust procedures appear to be human error can rear its ugly head around EVERY corner.
I can personally vouch for the PIC on the day as being a very talented and sharp individual. A professional through and through.
BA's response in terms of demoting him was an appropriate action (although how the opinion was formed was slightly suspect but we will leave that out of the debate)
I'm sorry but this whole fingerpointing exercise and 411A grudge against BA are both pretty sad and ignorant. Generalising has not helped our profession one bit.
LEARN from eachothers mistakes. Saying it will never happen to you is just dumb.
This should be a lesson for us all that no matter how robust procedures appear to be human error can rear its ugly head around EVERY corner.
I can personally vouch for the PIC on the day as being a very talented and sharp individual. A professional through and through.
BA's response in terms of demoting him was an appropriate action (although how the opinion was formed was slightly suspect but we will leave that out of the debate)
I'm sorry but this whole fingerpointing exercise and 411A grudge against BA are both pretty sad and ignorant. Generalising has not helped our profession one bit.
LEARN from eachothers mistakes. Saying it will never happen to you is just dumb.
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This incident has nothing to do with BA or procedures.
It has everything to with BA, and their suspect procedures...IE: allowing intersection takeoffs without sufficient runway remaining.
A BA flight deck crew was 'in charge' therefore, it has everything to do with BA.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
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Except BA procedures (and indeed I'd imagine the procedures of any reputable airline) don't allow intersection take offs with insufficient runway remaining, which seems a distinction you are struggling to cope with.
