Age 70 for international pilots?
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Experience - Its Relevance
MPH & 411
Experience alone if not necessarily important. What matters is what has been learned from that experience. Most of us know idiots whose claim to credibility is their lengthy years of experience from which which they have learned little.
Experience is important provided that it is accompanied by a continuing attitude of being prepared to learn all the time.
I'll stay away from age and capability because there so many variables in that sphere!
Experience alone if not necessarily important. What matters is what has been learned from that experience. Most of us know idiots whose claim to credibility is their lengthy years of experience from which which they have learned little.
Experience is important provided that it is accompanied by a continuing attitude of being prepared to learn all the time.
I'll stay away from age and capability because there so many variables in that sphere!
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But the guy who died at 43 probably still had all his faculties which is more than you can say for a couple of 70 year olds I've flown with.
He won't fly anymore but the geriatrics will.
He won't fly anymore but the geriatrics will.
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SKOL: So, the 70 year old's whom are still flying should not be, according to you. And the 43 year old (poor chap) who died recently on a Qatar flight, had more right and advantages to fly, because of his age. That, as opposed to the old farts that you are talking about. Whom, according to some, should be mowing the lawn instead of flying. Hmmm don't see the reasoning. One dies of a heart attack and the the others are senile. Great state of affairs we are in! If, anybody reads these posts they might come to the conclusion that they are been flown around by a bunch dubious individuals!! I'll say it again if, you are fit, pass your medicals and sim's why not fly on to a later age.
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Necessity, money, still enjoy the life style, etc. Some pilots don't want to retire at 55/56 yrs. Some pilots have not had the luck at working for a company for 25 years. Some pilots like the challenge and just want to work a bit more because, they want to!!!
If, you want to retire and can, go ahead. But don't critcise the ones that want to continue, can and still enjoy it?
If, you want to retire and can, go ahead. But don't critcise the ones that want to continue, can and still enjoy it?
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I suppose the next move will be:
No smokers in cockpits.
No BMI over 30 in cockpits.
All pilots over 40, annual cardiac stress test.
Annual blood tests for cholesterol for all pilots over 40.
All pilots able to run mile under 8 minutes.
That should thin the ranks for those impatient whipper-snappers.
No smokers in cockpits.
No BMI over 30 in cockpits.
All pilots over 40, annual cardiac stress test.
Annual blood tests for cholesterol for all pilots over 40.
All pilots able to run mile under 8 minutes.
That should thin the ranks for those impatient whipper-snappers.
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MPH,
I'll say this again.
I've just turned 60 myself and while there's not too many upsides the big one was not having to fly with 70 year old f/o's anymore. Some should be mowing the lawns, a couple of these guys are showing severe symptoms of old age, but they still pass their medicals because there's no way of checking what's going on in their brains.
Even the doctors will admit they know what these guys are like at 0300hrs but there's nothing they can do.
I'll say this again.
I've just turned 60 myself and while there's not too many upsides the big one was not having to fly with 70 year old f/o's anymore. Some should be mowing the lawns, a couple of these guys are showing severe symptoms of old age, but they still pass their medicals because there's no way of checking what's going on in their brains.
Even the doctors will admit they know what these guys are like at 0300hrs but there's nothing they can do.
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SKOL is right. The current medical exams are not designed to look for age related issues. Night vision, slow reactions, memory, digestion, prostate, mobility, sleep problems, nothing is checked. Just the usual, blood, ECG, urine, eyes and ears.
A compass test every 6 months would be a start.
A compass test every 6 months would be a start.
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slow reactions,
Pausing here for MAS, Skol etc. to wheel out the usual round of excuses.
The fact remains that there can be no general rule, age sixty five is a reasonable maximum, after that it should be on a case by case basis after appropriate tests.
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Just before I turned 60 I complained bitterly to the doctor who was carrying out my medical about having to be extra vigilant because I was flying with geriatrics who weren't up to the job.
I enquired what kind of solution to this matter there may be and was told that psychometric tests can detect senility etc., but they're very expensive.
So the big problem is who's going to wield the axe?
Doctors don't want to because they've got a reputation and a business to protect.
Other pilots don't want to because it may besmirch their reputation and besides it's a legal minefield. You only fly with them once or twice a year, do your penance or go sick.
And the status quo remains.
In the country I live in a pilot who ran a charter business was known to be negligent and incompetent, but no one wanted to wield the axe. Unfortunately while carrying out a single pilot approach in fog while on his mobile phone he impacted the ground killing himself and 5 others.
Many years ago when an unlimited age for pilots was first mooted I wrote to a chap in CAA who is known as the PMO, The Principal Medical Officer and enquired how he was going to assess mental competence of elderly pilots.
He said it wasn't really his problem, it was mine and if I encountered mental incompetence amongst old pilots I would report it to him and he would carry out the necessary tests.
Yeah right, as if I'm gonna do that.
An abdication of responsibility on everyone's part.
I enquired what kind of solution to this matter there may be and was told that psychometric tests can detect senility etc., but they're very expensive.
So the big problem is who's going to wield the axe?
Doctors don't want to because they've got a reputation and a business to protect.
Other pilots don't want to because it may besmirch their reputation and besides it's a legal minefield. You only fly with them once or twice a year, do your penance or go sick.
And the status quo remains.
In the country I live in a pilot who ran a charter business was known to be negligent and incompetent, but no one wanted to wield the axe. Unfortunately while carrying out a single pilot approach in fog while on his mobile phone he impacted the ground killing himself and 5 others.
Many years ago when an unlimited age for pilots was first mooted I wrote to a chap in CAA who is known as the PMO, The Principal Medical Officer and enquired how he was going to assess mental competence of elderly pilots.
He said it wasn't really his problem, it was mine and if I encountered mental incompetence amongst old pilots I would report it to him and he would carry out the necessary tests.
Yeah right, as if I'm gonna do that.
An abdication of responsibility on everyone's part.
Last edited by skol; 15th Oct 2010 at 03:56.
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What supposition exactly are you referring to?
And of of course I will advise the company I work for that I am not arrive at particular airfields at particular hours, are you pulling my chain?
And of of course I will advise the company I work for that I am not arrive at particular airfields at particular hours, are you pulling my chain?
Last edited by skol; 15th Oct 2010 at 06:07.
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Here is an idea. Restrict over 60 pilots from flying between 0000-2359. That should settle things!
They all should be in the retirement home trying to wipe the tapioca from their chin anyway. No need for them in an airplane doing the same with paying passengers sitting behind their senile arses.
They all should be in the retirement home trying to wipe the tapioca from their chin anyway. No need for them in an airplane doing the same with paying passengers sitting behind their senile arses.
Why? Because of passion!
Passion is the same @ 18 and @60, 70, 80...and so on...
Why should "old fellas" give up their passion? To give the way to the "young fellas"? As I lived this passion during all my aviation career (I am 63, approaching 64) why I should give up? I still enjoy every day flying "my" B744 and have never considered flying as a job...maybe those who are asking this "right of way" have this idea...but for jobs, written and accepted rules (contracts) apply...not moral rules...
With all respect, I don't consider that a valid reason to step down...only the medical and the proficiency will force me to do that...and, of course, if my employer still agrees.
After terminating my "commercial career" I plan, always driven by passion, to get into the "business" aviation world...of course, again, if I'll comply with medical/proficiency...and I won't have bad conscience problems...it's my passion which makes me happy.
Passion is the same @ 18 and @60, 70, 80...and so on...
Why should "old fellas" give up their passion? To give the way to the "young fellas"? As I lived this passion during all my aviation career (I am 63, approaching 64) why I should give up? I still enjoy every day flying "my" B744 and have never considered flying as a job...maybe those who are asking this "right of way" have this idea...but for jobs, written and accepted rules (contracts) apply...not moral rules...
With all respect, I don't consider that a valid reason to step down...only the medical and the proficiency will force me to do that...and, of course, if my employer still agrees.
After terminating my "commercial career" I plan, always driven by passion, to get into the "business" aviation world...of course, again, if I'll comply with medical/proficiency...and I won't have bad conscience problems...it's my passion which makes me happy.
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I suppose the next move will be:
No smokers in cockpits.
No BMI over 30 in cockpits.
All pilots over 40, annual cardiac stress test.
Annual blood tests for cholesterol for all pilots over 40.
All pilots able to run mile under 8 minutes.
That should thin the ranks for those impatient whipper-snappers.
No smokers in cockpits.
No BMI over 30 in cockpits.
All pilots over 40, annual cardiac stress test.
Annual blood tests for cholesterol for all pilots over 40.
All pilots able to run mile under 8 minutes.
That should thin the ranks for those impatient whipper-snappers.
I'm not saying we all need to be fit as fighter pilots though. Just that, when you have turned the 40 years marker on a BMI over 30 and you smoke you have serious health issues. Which will come to haunt you later.
@capricorn23: I understand your disgruntled reaction perfectly. But likely you should understand that in certain situations it can be frustrating for younger generations to see how their growth potential is being curbed.
You must also admit that times have changed. The days where you start out as FO knowing that in 15 years that command will be there for you are over. With that uncertainty comes impatience. You can not blame people for wanting that command earlier.
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by d105
@capricorn23: I understand your disgruntled reaction perfectly. But likely you should understand that in certain situations it can be frustrating for younger generations to see how their growth potential is being curbed.
You must also admit that times have changed. The days where you start out as FO knowing that in 15 years that command will be there for you are over. With that uncertainty comes impatience. You can not blame people for wanting that command earlier.
You must also admit that times have changed. The days where you start out as FO knowing that in 15 years that command will be there for you are over. With that uncertainty comes impatience. You can not blame people for wanting that command earlier.
Why now should I, or @capricorn23, or others simply make way for youngsters, impatient for a command? There's no "rule" that says one must have a command by a set age, and if rules of retirement have changed, well so be it. Lots of other rules have changed too!
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I'm sorry but that is just so conceited. I doubt that many captains today would have walked into command without some F/O time, I certainly didn't. I had top wait my time, without malice towards the bloke in the left seat.
Why now should I, or @capricorn23, or others simply make way for youngsters, impatient for a command? There's no "rule" that says one must have a command by a set age, and if rules of retirement have changed, well so be it. Lots of other rules have changed too!
Why now should I, or @capricorn23, or others simply make way for youngsters, impatient for a command? There's no "rule" that says one must have a command by a set age, and if rules of retirement have changed, well so be it. Lots of other rules have changed too!
However, I highly doubt you started your first job as an FO with over $100,000 in loans just to finance your training.
As you state you had to wait your time to get into the left seat. But at least you knew it was coming eventually. That's a whole lot difference to waiting your time in many airlines nowadays, where you can't even be certain they'll be around in 3 years.
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As you state you had to wait your time to get into the left seat. But at least you knew it was coming eventually. That's a whole lot difference to waiting your time in many airlines nowadays, where you can't even be certain they'll be around in 3 years.
Dear d105
First of all I wish to clarify that I didn't blame anybody for looking to a shorter "Right Seat career" and my reaction was not disgruntled:I understand perfectly the motivations behind those frustrations.
But I wanted just to make soon clear what is the value which drives me in being still a pilot after many years...and I am sure this is common to many others...in spite of all those naive arguments brought up by many and trying to explain why those "old fellas" have to stay abusively (...this is an adverb I use just to summarize the feelings...) "on board", being the most popular: a lot of money earned but burnt out due to many families and divorces; in their retirement time, not enjoying to play golf or going sailing or having permanent "drinking sessions" in their villas, and others which now I can't recall.
Another "strong" argument was that they are geriatrics (I'll come back another time on this...as I am getting already too long on the previous stuff).
First of all, not all "geriatrics" like to go beyond 60.
Then,IMHO, I find those "arguments" rude and lacking respect to people which they don't even know and that might have taken decisions (right or wrong...but who has the right to say that?...) in their private life which affected only their lives...what has been the impact of those decisions to the "young fellas" careers?...for me: zero.
I myself, something 40 years back, when I joined an airline, saw that pilots coming from AF with a couple years of experience, got their command in 6months/one year (!): as I had only one year in the AF (and about 300 hours) my career began on a wrong foot...getting my command after 15 years...(with few companies "out of businness experiences" in between)...also on those times (40 years back) careers "schedule" were very unpredictable...
And the "wrong foot" began to work from the "first day" (that is after a year in the company): the first oil crises hit the industry (at the beginning of the 70s) and "my" company decided to get rid of the lasts-in (fair enough).
The "cheese on the maccaroni" was that the company, the unions, the colleagues (with safe jobs) gave us valid moral support:..."you're young, you can get easily another career in a different job somewhere else"...what a great moral bust for people having the passion for flying!
At the end, the passion was the best driver.
Now, @60+, the "environment", tries to tell me again what I should do:again?
Again clearing the path to others?
Being politically correct, I just say that I "maintain course and speed", as again, I don't see any valid reason for which I should stop flying, being that my passion.
These conflicting views might start a war between generations which would be useful to nobody: we have already a kind of war out of there (the pension problems between the "fathers and the sons"...being the latter those paying for their fathers' pensions and with "good" chances to get nothing when they retire).
Financial people would say that these ups and downs depend on the demand-supply situations in the market...and very little...from those "old fellas" which don't want to clear the way...and the market outlooks show encouraging signs...
So no critics or blame to anybody, please understand me: it's just "a view of the world" from a different perspective and any perspective has its right to exist...bringing respect to the different ones...
First of all I wish to clarify that I didn't blame anybody for looking to a shorter "Right Seat career" and my reaction was not disgruntled:I understand perfectly the motivations behind those frustrations.
But I wanted just to make soon clear what is the value which drives me in being still a pilot after many years...and I am sure this is common to many others...in spite of all those naive arguments brought up by many and trying to explain why those "old fellas" have to stay abusively (...this is an adverb I use just to summarize the feelings...) "on board", being the most popular: a lot of money earned but burnt out due to many families and divorces; in their retirement time, not enjoying to play golf or going sailing or having permanent "drinking sessions" in their villas, and others which now I can't recall.
Another "strong" argument was that they are geriatrics (I'll come back another time on this...as I am getting already too long on the previous stuff).
First of all, not all "geriatrics" like to go beyond 60.
Then,IMHO, I find those "arguments" rude and lacking respect to people which they don't even know and that might have taken decisions (right or wrong...but who has the right to say that?...) in their private life which affected only their lives...what has been the impact of those decisions to the "young fellas" careers?...for me: zero.
I myself, something 40 years back, when I joined an airline, saw that pilots coming from AF with a couple years of experience, got their command in 6months/one year (!): as I had only one year in the AF (and about 300 hours) my career began on a wrong foot...getting my command after 15 years...(with few companies "out of businness experiences" in between)...also on those times (40 years back) careers "schedule" were very unpredictable...
And the "wrong foot" began to work from the "first day" (that is after a year in the company): the first oil crises hit the industry (at the beginning of the 70s) and "my" company decided to get rid of the lasts-in (fair enough).
The "cheese on the maccaroni" was that the company, the unions, the colleagues (with safe jobs) gave us valid moral support:..."you're young, you can get easily another career in a different job somewhere else"...what a great moral bust for people having the passion for flying!
At the end, the passion was the best driver.
Now, @60+, the "environment", tries to tell me again what I should do:again?
Again clearing the path to others?
Being politically correct, I just say that I "maintain course and speed", as again, I don't see any valid reason for which I should stop flying, being that my passion.
These conflicting views might start a war between generations which would be useful to nobody: we have already a kind of war out of there (the pension problems between the "fathers and the sons"...being the latter those paying for their fathers' pensions and with "good" chances to get nothing when they retire).
Financial people would say that these ups and downs depend on the demand-supply situations in the market...and very little...from those "old fellas" which don't want to clear the way...and the market outlooks show encouraging signs...
So no critics or blame to anybody, please understand me: it's just "a view of the world" from a different perspective and any perspective has its right to exist...bringing respect to the different ones...