Lufthansa cargo plane crash

[Graybeard]

We'll know whether the MD-11 is defective if/when Fedex does a major mod or sells them.

GB

[Gretchenfrage]

Lufthansa, an airline with one on the highest training standards in the industry

Well, a lot of freightdogs at LH originate from a regional subsidiary, with quite young captains transited from CRJ direct to the maddog (was a union and merger mess-up, like many others). The MD11 skipper was only 39, hardly where regularly trained LH skippers stand on the mainline.

So much about brushing a brand over what's not. Training and selection has eroded dramatically, even at LH, AF etc. The maddog simply is the most demanding airliner today and logically shows us first that there is a lingering disease.

Brace

[JW411]

"The No.2 thrust reverser does not appear to be deployed"

I have never flown the MD-11 but I have a fair amount of experience on the DC-10.

We tended not to use reverse on the No.2 engine unless we really needed it. Why? Simply because if it stuck in reverse it was an absolute b*gger to get up there to hand crank the reverser closed again.

Perhaps there is a similar philosophy on the MD-11?

[CptRegionalJet]

Gretchenfrage,
better get your facts straight before posting such nonsense.
Like studi said no LCAG Cpt is a direct entry from a regional arm.
While many FO`s originate from CLH most of them move on to mainline after 5 years at LCAG.
To become skipper on the MD11 currently requires around 12-13 years of LH-mainline seniority.
By the way,there is no better way to learn how to land a plane then flying regional with 3-5 legs average a day.Selection,training standards and operating procedures are also almost similar to the parent company.
Training might be a factor here,but the MD11 type rating counts as one of the thoughest within LH....

[Flight Safety]

Third Generation

If you start from WWII and move forward, there's basically been 2 generations of professional aviators. The first generation relied on flying skills to attain the highest levels of safety that their equipment would allow. The second now relies on automation to achieve higher levels of safety. If even higher levels of safety are to be achieved in the future, a third generation of pilots has to combine the skills of the 1st and 2nd generations, and add analytical skills not too common in either of the prior generations.

Automation has clearly improved aviation safety and the statistics show this. It's remarkable that the 1st generation achieved what they did without most of the wizardry of today's aircraft. The failure of the 2nd generation is a general disregard of the basic flying skills and aerodynamic skills of the 1st generation, and a general lack of systems analyst skills. Both failures get the 2nd generation into trouble when the automation fails them, and holds back their potential safety achievements.

The 3rd generation needs to understand sound aerodynamic principles to augment a sound set of basic flying skills, to properly understand the aerodynamic strengths and weaknesses of his aircraft type. The 3rd generation not only needs to understand the automation systems, but also needs sounds systems analyst skills to understand the automation system's strengths and weaknesses. In other words the 3rd generation must know their aircraft type and its systems inside and out.

I love the post of Frenk Boreman, who had a successful career on a troubled type because he practiced "know your aircraft". I can't think of any profession that possesses a greater demand for rigorous honesty than aviation. You have to be honest about yourself and your skills, and you have to be honest about your airplane. That means keeping both your flying and systems skill up, and keeping up with the issues and problems with your aircraft type. You have to keep up with training issues, accident reports, recurring problems, ADs, tech bulletins, automation software issues, unusual failure modes, etc, etc.

The 3rd generation of professional aviators has to be good at everything to lead the industry to even higher levels of safety. The bean counters for the most part don't understand this, but there are ways of getting and maintaining the skills and knowledge you need.

[sprocky_ger]

Green Guard

and last year or so,touch down on one wing in Bremen or nearby ?

It was Hamburg actually. LH044 from Munich 1st March 2008. Times go by fast

[2009PP]

@denkraii

In flight direction LEFT, the Number 2 REV is open.

[2009PP]

@JW411:

Perhaps there is a similar philosophy on the MD-11?

No! Nothing like that on LH-Cargo MD-11.
All REVs or none.

[Gretchenfrage]

I admit I might be wrong about direct upgrade CRJ to MD11 as skipper, allthough I still suspect a former friend of mine did just that, but I stand corrected.
At the same time please tell me if a mainline pilot at LH can make it to a WB cockpit as skipper in 12-13 years?? I guess not, thus the carreer onto the freighter is shorter. Short carreers onto a MD11 is a recipe for disaster. I think I have mentioned it before but at the beginning of the MD11 ops mainly senior MD80 or DC10 pilots transited. There was no problem then. As later the new breed from RJ/CRJ and especially A320 pilots joined, the incidents increased above average. Coincidence? You tell me. I believe that you need to have experienced a pitch-power machine with slats and higher approach speeds for quite some time to be fit for the MD11. It's not rocket science, it's simply piloting experience on similar equippment.

The cry for SOP adherence and automation protection to cover up for the lack of quality in todays pilots just goes so far.

[NOLAND3]

AS denkraai has already pointed out, on the MD11 you get 1&3 on main gear compression hovever Rev#2 is not available until nose gear compression to avoid a inadvertent pitch up.

Regards

[2009PP]

What do want to say by that Noland3?

The statement is corret partly, NO2 IDLE REV is avail BEFORE Nose Gear touchdown- have a look at these pics:

Photos: McDonnell Douglas MD-11 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
or this:
Photos: McDonnell Douglas MD-11 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
or this:
Photos: McDonnell Douglas MD-11 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Enough pics to believe it??? Thanks!!

Number 2 REV is open on the lefthand side on CQ- check the pics!

[Klauss]

lh piloting Hamburg / Johannesburg

The way I see it, Hamburg 2008 was mostly the result of too little info given from Airbus
on the reduction of pilot authority on the controls (!!) near the ground.
Johannesburg: was in the 70ies, was in Nairobi, and the result of a not installed warning
system on missing/incomplete leading edge deployment. Crew exonerated.
Best, klauss

[NOLAND3]

Just dragged out my old FCOM and yes your correct, Idle Rev until nose gear compression

The reverser interlock on engines 1 and 3 is a physical
stop that prohibits further lever movement until the
reverser is safely deployed. For GE, when the reverser
is 60 percent deployed, the ECU removes the interlock,
allowing uninhibited movement of the thrust
levers. For P&W, when the reverser is 87 percent deployed,
the EEC removes the interlock, allowing uninhibited
movement of the thrust levers.
Reverser lever 2 does not have a physical interlock.
The ECU or EEC, however, prohibits thrust increase
beyond idle power on engine 2 until the nose wheel
ground sensing switch has closed and the reverser is

more than 90 percent deployed.

[winter959]

Lack of training is a red herring too, since DLH does actually make landing training in the real A/C by flying circuits at the end of the TR. Tell me one airline which does that nowadays on longhaul aircraft.

SQ is doing weekly touch and goes at Senai Airport.

[JW411]

Flight Safety:

I absolutely love your post #191.

It pretty much says it all.

The sad thing is that it will be an immense problem to persuade Generation No.2 to listen and learn from Generation No.1 before developing Generation No.3.

Anyway, well done. Your summary of the situation that we find ourselves in nowadays is spot on. Until those problems are addressed, the accident rate will continue to escalate.

[411A]

Lack of training is a red herring too, since DLH does actually make landing training in the real A/C by flying circuits at the end of the TR. Tell me one airline which does that nowadays on longhaul aircraft.

We do, and have done for quite some time.
Why?
Because I'm the DFO, that's why...and the head shed doesn't complain much, either.

SQ is doing weekly touch and goes at Senai Airport.

Not surprised, circuits were completed (until trained to proficiency) when I was with SQ, for new First Officers....and Captains.

It is the proper way to train, in my view, make NO mistake

NB.
It must work out OK for SQ, as they have quite a good safety record, considering their worldwide route structure.

[JW411]

2009PP:

"Perhaps there is a similar philosophy on the MD-11"

"No! Nothing like that on LH-Cargo MD-11. All REVs or none".

Is it a German thing to isolate lateral thinking? I seriously doubt that. Why on earth would you want to put No.2 in reverse if you don't need it?

Let's face it, except for wet runway operations, the use of reverse thrust is not predicated in your performance figures.

You tell me that it is ALL or NONE in LH Cargo. Nothing in between.

Have you ever had to stow a stuck reverser after landing? It involves something like a hexdrive with a winding handle. The wing engines are easy (we, and I use the term "we" - ie: including me - the captain -with some consideration) wound one close at an airfield where we didn't have company support one night.

I suppose that is the difference. If you have LH maintenance available on a worldwide basis with 30 foot cherry pickers on instant standby then you can indeed go for the ALL or NONE scenario.

Which takes me very neatly to the original query;

"No.2 engine reverser does not appear to be deployed".

So; are you really telling us that LH Cargo ALWAYS (that means ALWAYS) go for an ALL or NONE scenario as a matter of SOP? If so, could you please explain to all of us out here why it was that the crew of 'CQ apparently did NOT deploy ALL or NONE contrary to what you tell us?

Even in Germany, SOPs are SOPs.

[Ice-O-Bar]

"Lufthansa Cargo MD-11 Crash Raises Issues"

Lufthansa Cargo MD-11 Crash Raises Issues | AVIATION WEEK

[2009PP]

@JW411:

I can't follow your remarks....

SOP is to deploy ALL REVs! You can see at the pics of CQ that the number 2 REV on the lefthand side is open, right? Why the righthand side is closed, I dont know-may be you know?!

SOP is to deploy ALL REVs, except in an ENG FAIL situation- that is all I said- anything wrong with that? I dont think so...

And yes, even on dry runways- you will open all 3 REVs.

BTW, thanks for your statement:" Is it a German thing to isolate lateral thinking?" Of course you are right!

[Chuck Canuck]

Quote:
Lack of training is a red herring too, since DLH does actually make landing training in the real A/C by flying circuits at the end of the TR. Tell me one airline which does that nowadays on longhaul aircraft.
We do, and have done for quite some time.
Why?
Because I'm the DFO, that's why...and the head shed doesn't complain much, either.

Quote:
SQ is doing weekly touch and goes at Senai Airport.
Not surprised, circuits were completed (until trained to proficiency) when I was with SQ, for new First Officers....and Captains.

It is the proper way to train, in my view, make NO mistake

NB.
It must work out OK for SQ, as they have quite a good safety record, considering their worldwide route structure.

Bravo, 411A....that's the way to it. Nowadays we have these sim instructors and checkers who think the training in the box is the real super thing. They throw stupid statements like, it's a level 6 sim; it replicates everything in the real world. Absolute hogwash, I have trained on different level 6 sims at different outfits and I can tell you that they absolutely do not replicate all the handling qualities and environmental conditions in the real world!