Time to end seniority?
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During the 50's & 60's seniority was not an issue among the inderpendants captains used to move about left seat to left seat this meant on average it was 11 years to comand for most f/o's Once a captain always a captain then ruled.
Pro's & con's for both systems.
E.K.Gann hit the nail on the head as prev quoted.
Pro's & con's for both systems.
E.K.Gann hit the nail on the head as prev quoted.
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To say that seniority is a good thing because it looks after the weakest links in an organisation is surely naive.
Do you really want to be dragged down to the level of the lowest common denominator if you're (excuse the pun) a high flyer? Surely not?!?
And moreover, do you want to have to 'carry' these people - even if safety issues are involved?
Hmmmm...!
Do you really want to be dragged down to the level of the lowest common denominator if you're (excuse the pun) a high flyer? Surely not?!?
And moreover, do you want to have to 'carry' these people - even if safety issues are involved?
Hmmmm...!
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Seniority works for promotion that is the only reasonable way an F/O can get some experience and be capable of a shift to the LHS. What seniority should NOT be is the right to the best of everthing (trips,leave slots etc) what ALL crews should have is a rotating seniority system that is fair to all. Seniority for promotion OK not super seniority.
Regards
Qflte
Regards
Qflte
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How very political, communist, capitalist, unionist. Crikey, I didn't realise the seniority system was based on the free market, I thought all that queueing was done in the Eastern Bloc. I think you are confusing capitalism with protectionism, something the US of A is very good at.
Every other profession uses the free market, some of them even have unions. The seniority system seems more at home in North Korea! Survival of the fittest, nope, survival of those at the front of Q. I guess all those dinosaurs became airline pilots!
Harry
p.s. I'm just off to play tennis, if I turn up first I should be entitled to win the tournament. May the first man win, that's what I say!
Every other profession uses the free market, some of them even have unions. The seniority system seems more at home in North Korea! Survival of the fittest, nope, survival of those at the front of Q. I guess all those dinosaurs became airline pilots!
Harry
p.s. I'm just off to play tennis, if I turn up first I should be entitled to win the tournament. May the first man win, that's what I say!
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This is a discussion that might never end, wannabes and people unhappy with their lot in life want to end seniority. Those who have spent years with an Airline building a career like it! I don't wish to leave my job of 13 years to jump to the bottom of a new heap OR to slot in above others. I expect to stay here and take promotion when my seniority allows me to demonstrate my ability! I am happy, I may be here for the next 20 years - my choice! If you wan't my job that is fine, but you come here junior to ME!
Union Goon
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Seniority in an airline has nothing to do unions. If seniority was about unions then there would be a NATIONAL seniority list like there are for autoworkers, crane operators, merchant marine, electricians etc. Seniority is a corporate thing. All of the Guvs union bashing aside, it isn't the unions that are responsible.
There are dozens of non union airlines out there. They all go to a seniority system. Its FAR cheaper for the company to reward longevity via bidding and whatnot, than to actually give decent raises.
Airlines that did away with seniority or didn't use a seniority system had way more problems as a result. The airline that I used to work for had tried it for a spell. It simply didn't work.
The other thing is that we train to a standard, this isn't fighters where the best man survives and the loser dies. They either pass or don't. How would you sort it otherwise?
Seniority protects the company from all kinds of turmoil. In its application by the airline, it disadvantages the union, by reducing the ability of ALPA to help victims of layoffs or industrial action.
Cheers
Wino
There are dozens of non union airlines out there. They all go to a seniority system. Its FAR cheaper for the company to reward longevity via bidding and whatnot, than to actually give decent raises.
Airlines that did away with seniority or didn't use a seniority system had way more problems as a result. The airline that I used to work for had tried it for a spell. It simply didn't work.
The other thing is that we train to a standard, this isn't fighters where the best man survives and the loser dies. They either pass or don't. How would you sort it otherwise?
Seniority protects the company from all kinds of turmoil. In its application by the airline, it disadvantages the union, by reducing the ability of ALPA to help victims of layoffs or industrial action.
Cheers
Wino
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I also think the seniority system is fine. Except there should be a way a experienced Captain for one commuter should be able to go work for another with out being paid the same as a 700 hr flight instructor. There are a lot of really Experienced regional pilots that may not want to or can't go to a major and may just simply want to move to another location of the country for what ever reason. I agree that you should still have a seniority system but a lot of commuter are saying they don't have enough qualified Captains. Well what current qualified Capt can afford to go back to CFI wages just to move. Pretty hard to justify it to your family.
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Static said it first and let me repeat it.
An airline without seniority would discourage whistle blowing, safety concious, pilots. They would have to constantly reflect on whether to speak out against new 'work pressures', for fear of hampering their chance for new opportunities within that company.
It is not in the interests of any airline to promote a First Officer who is not capable of commanding one of its aircraft, regardless of their seniority. This thread has sometimes suggested that.
There are around 5% of First Officers in the company who I work for, who will never be allowed to become a Captain, which is a meritocratic slant to our seniority based system, is it not?
An airline without seniority would discourage whistle blowing, safety concious, pilots. They would have to constantly reflect on whether to speak out against new 'work pressures', for fear of hampering their chance for new opportunities within that company.
It is not in the interests of any airline to promote a First Officer who is not capable of commanding one of its aircraft, regardless of their seniority. This thread has sometimes suggested that.
There are around 5% of First Officers in the company who I work for, who will never be allowed to become a Captain, which is a meritocratic slant to our seniority based system, is it not?
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So the logical conclusion therefore is that in order for any organisation to be successful, profitable, and indeed safe, it has to be based around a seniority system.
With no other profession utilising this sytem I'm surprised that the world is still turning. I can see the headlines now "natural selection replaced by seniority system.......dinosaurs delighted".
In order to prevent further chaos I suggest a global seniority system, first one on the planet gets first choice on the worlds resources......
Sarcasm over, it's very simple, the more senior members of our community had to endure the seniority system, therefore so should the new boys. It's an arcane system but appeals to the conservative nature of the average pilot. Why be part of a meritocracy where skills, talent, and knowledge are rewarded when you can be an automaton on a conveyer belt. Do your time, don't stand out, be average, don't get noticed, the rewards will come to he who waits.....and I'm waiting, impatiently!
Harry
With no other profession utilising this sytem I'm surprised that the world is still turning. I can see the headlines now "natural selection replaced by seniority system.......dinosaurs delighted".
In order to prevent further chaos I suggest a global seniority system, first one on the planet gets first choice on the worlds resources......
Sarcasm over, it's very simple, the more senior members of our community had to endure the seniority system, therefore so should the new boys. It's an arcane system but appeals to the conservative nature of the average pilot. Why be part of a meritocracy where skills, talent, and knowledge are rewarded when you can be an automaton on a conveyer belt. Do your time, don't stand out, be average, don't get noticed, the rewards will come to he who waits.....and I'm waiting, impatiently!
Harry
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The seniority system works, as long as you are within an airline that is established, financially secure and not expanding too fast. However, in Europe at least, the lack of ability to take your labour elsewhere is tantamount to restricting the right to freedom of employment.
The advantages of the seniority system are stability (bordering on rigidity), it's easily understood, and no-one is seriously at risk of losing their job unless they screw up catastrophically. It also allows the employer to only worry about making his company attractive to the most junior pilots - the only ones who work in a free labour market. His senior guys won't - can't - move out, so why should the employer give a damn what he pays them? He can keep the salary just above the level that would provoke serious industrial action (because that is the ONLY sanction available to the pilot workforce), and know that everything is hunky-dory. For him.
The disadvantages of the seniority system are that it stifles ambition, prevents free movement of labour and can legitimise some pretty unfair practices of benefit distribution.
Ideally, there should be no barriers to an individual taking his qualifications and having them fully recognised by any other potential employer. That wouldn't necessarily affect anything else, from leave to flight safety. However, the changeover from the current system is likely to be so disruptive that I just can't see it happening without international (say, EU) legislation. That may come if the current system actually breaches any labour movement laws, which it may well do (although I believe there are some exemptions for aviation).
I, for one, would appreciate the opportunity to have my considerable experience recognised by, and saleable to, the market, just as do the managers, accountants and lawyers who love the current, restrictive, system. I just don't think that anyone cares enough to change things.
The advantages of the seniority system are stability (bordering on rigidity), it's easily understood, and no-one is seriously at risk of losing their job unless they screw up catastrophically. It also allows the employer to only worry about making his company attractive to the most junior pilots - the only ones who work in a free labour market. His senior guys won't - can't - move out, so why should the employer give a damn what he pays them? He can keep the salary just above the level that would provoke serious industrial action (because that is the ONLY sanction available to the pilot workforce), and know that everything is hunky-dory. For him.
The disadvantages of the seniority system are that it stifles ambition, prevents free movement of labour and can legitimise some pretty unfair practices of benefit distribution.
Ideally, there should be no barriers to an individual taking his qualifications and having them fully recognised by any other potential employer. That wouldn't necessarily affect anything else, from leave to flight safety. However, the changeover from the current system is likely to be so disruptive that I just can't see it happening without international (say, EU) legislation. That may come if the current system actually breaches any labour movement laws, which it may well do (although I believe there are some exemptions for aviation).
I, for one, would appreciate the opportunity to have my considerable experience recognised by, and saleable to, the market, just as do the managers, accountants and lawyers who love the current, restrictive, system. I just don't think that anyone cares enough to change things.
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Progression through the ranks in a major airline is based upon seniority because all pilots have achieved the same high standards and qualifications. Otherwise they would not make the grade. Seniority is also another word for commitment - it is also a measure of loyalty to that particular employer. The more proven loyalty gets rewarded. Whats wrong with that?
If progression was to be based upon any other criteria, it would, as often does, lend itself to promotion and advancement on the basis of politics. We are all well aware of those airlines where direct entry from the military guarantees instant promotion ahead of all others.
If progression was to be based upon any other criteria, it would, as often does, lend itself to promotion and advancement on the basis of politics. We are all well aware of those airlines where direct entry from the military guarantees instant promotion ahead of all others.
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Unfortunately, in my experience, the people who most vociferously defend rigid seniority systems are those who have benefitted from them or know that they will only benefit from them versus a free market system.
Personaly I feel that, like democracy, its it the best we have got however flawed. I have seen the results, fortunately not fatal, of nepotism in this industry in a non-unionised airline.
So until we can find a better system we will have to retain this one.
This debate is a very important topic that must be aired periodically to allow us to consider the options, I am sure that there is a better system and only through these discussions will we find it.
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: whizzjet ]
Personaly I feel that, like democracy, its it the best we have got however flawed. I have seen the results, fortunately not fatal, of nepotism in this industry in a non-unionised airline.
So until we can find a better system we will have to retain this one.
This debate is a very important topic that must be aired periodically to allow us to consider the options, I am sure that there is a better system and only through these discussions will we find it.
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: whizzjet ]
