Time to end seniority?
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The thing is, no other profession to my knowledge has such a system.
An analogy:
Take Terry Leahy (Tesco's CEO), very successfull businessman, worked his way up from the shop floor (literally).
Now, for the sake of argument, let's say he decided to go and work for Sainsbury's - he's hardly likely to join stacking shelves and working the checkout is he?
So, let's say I'm a hoary old skipper with 15,000 hours, having worked with company X for 20 years.
For whatever reason, I may have to change company - is it fair and reasonable that when I join a new company, I am junior to some Second Officer fresh out of training school with 200 hours?
Surely the greatest leveller in aviation is EXPERIENCE. We have a natural seniority inbuilt - hours flown. Isn't this fairer than an arbitary date of joining?
An analogy:
Take Terry Leahy (Tesco's CEO), very successfull businessman, worked his way up from the shop floor (literally).
Now, for the sake of argument, let's say he decided to go and work for Sainsbury's - he's hardly likely to join stacking shelves and working the checkout is he?
So, let's say I'm a hoary old skipper with 15,000 hours, having worked with company X for 20 years.
For whatever reason, I may have to change company - is it fair and reasonable that when I join a new company, I am junior to some Second Officer fresh out of training school with 200 hours?
Surely the greatest leveller in aviation is EXPERIENCE. We have a natural seniority inbuilt - hours flown. Isn't this fairer than an arbitary date of joining?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
This argument is a bit like socialism. The young student believes in equal shares for all, down with capitalism. Twenty years later, when he has a good job, nice house, nice car etc., it's all a different story. Would I be right in assuming most of those arguing against seniority are the more junior pilots?
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Some pilots have written eloquently on the benefits of promotion according to "merit" or "ability". Unfortunately in practice the assessment of merit seems to come down to their preparedness to go into discretion, accept aircraft with "grey area" technical defects and generally clean the management shoes.
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The proplem is that once a person gets into a good airline, a major carrier, they tend to stay there. Movement is by "Dead Mens Shoes".
If this same carrier was to accept direct entry commands the F/Os would sit for a hell of a long time in the right seat.
Maybe the solution to this would be to promote F/Os, depending on ability and hours, to command whether they were required for the position or not. Flights would then be rostered with two Captains flying leg for leg, left seat right seat.
If this same carrier was to accept direct entry commands the F/Os would sit for a hell of a long time in the right seat.
Maybe the solution to this would be to promote F/Os, depending on ability and hours, to command whether they were required for the position or not. Flights would then be rostered with two Captains flying leg for leg, left seat right seat.
Interesting topic. There are pluses and minuses to seniority pros and cons.
As stated here already, without seniority, boot-licking and accepting any airplane, no matter which system component/flight instruments are inop (a 747 crew at People's Express at Newark was fired over this, for rejecting a plane with at least one HSI or two ADIs inop-were they not?) could vault you over your peers. In the US, former Britt Airways and Connie Kallita... don't use seniority. Never mind the face-to-face confrontations with certain owners over serious system malfunctions on anything from Lears to DC-8s.
As stated here already, without seniority, boot-licking and accepting any airplane, no matter which system component/flight instruments are inop (a 747 crew at People's Express at Newark was fired over this, for rejecting a plane with at least one HSI or two ADIs inop-were they not?) could vault you over your peers. In the US, former Britt Airways and Connie Kallita... don't use seniority. Never mind the face-to-face confrontations with certain owners over serious system malfunctions on anything from Lears to DC-8s.
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Holy Smoke.....seniority.....and there is the Guvnor sounding off again! The saddest individual in the world! Get a life man....this is the Professional Pilots Network....you are NOT a professional pilot, presumably just a highly frustrated imaginary one! There is a life out there....go find it you sad man! What is seniority to you?
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I think seniority could be likened to Winston Churchill’s comments on the Westminster parliamentary system. I can’t remember his exact words, but they went along the lines of “The Westminster parliamentary system is unfair, undemocratic, hopelessly overcomplicated and iniquitous in the extreme. It is open to corruption, gerrymandering and any number of other malpractices. For all these shortcomings, it remains by far the best and most fair system of Government anyone’s come up with to date.”
People keen to throw out seniority, (something that many airlines have today only after a protracted and bitter fight by pilot groups in the past), should understand clearly all the ramifications of any so-called ‘merit-based’ system brought in to replace it. Seniority has many shortcomings and few would disagree that it has limited scope in a start up airline. However, in established airlines, for all its shortcomings, it remains the only system that prevents wholesale nepotism in its many guises on the part of management. Anyone who thinks management wouldn’t take advantage of any such system has only to look to the events currently taking place in Cathay.
I’ve worked in airlines with and without a seniority system and seen the shortcomings of both systems. Anyone who decries a seniority system, has quite obviously never worked in a system that does not have seniority – unless of course he’s the GM’s nephew.
People keen to throw out seniority, (something that many airlines have today only after a protracted and bitter fight by pilot groups in the past), should understand clearly all the ramifications of any so-called ‘merit-based’ system brought in to replace it. Seniority has many shortcomings and few would disagree that it has limited scope in a start up airline. However, in established airlines, for all its shortcomings, it remains the only system that prevents wholesale nepotism in its many guises on the part of management. Anyone who thinks management wouldn’t take advantage of any such system has only to look to the events currently taking place in Cathay.
I’ve worked in airlines with and without a seniority system and seen the shortcomings of both systems. Anyone who decries a seniority system, has quite obviously never worked in a system that does not have seniority – unless of course he’s the GM’s nephew.
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As someone who joined a 'good' company where the seniority system was usually fairly administered I had no gripe in waiting my turn for promotion/type progression. My more senior colleagues used to remind me that eventually I'd get to the top of the list, just like they had. All it took was patience.
Then about five years ago the new management began bending the rules, then they stretched them, then they blatantly broke them wide open. As a result, pilots who were still in short trousers when I started flying jets, were promoted over my head because it suited the companies selfish needs. It had nothing to do with ability...because it was done to a whole group of contemporaries of mine. We just happened to be on the 'wrong type' at the time and the company saw the opportunity to save money on type conversions by promoting junior F/O's from right to left seat. As a result of this outrageous abuse my carreer was damaged permanently...a freeze system operates in the company and I was forced to make bids onto types that I should have naturally been directed onto (with no resultant freeze). Also, the two years more I spent on the 'old' type was a penalisation that I get no future credit for...so I'm two years set back in my carreer development.
One other thing got broken that day. It was the faith and loyalty I had held in my company and its management. I also lost a lot of respect for my union, which let it happen, and the colleagues who took advantage of the opportunity to screw me and my contemporaries for their own personal gain. It hasn't been forgotten. I'm loyal to one thing now. Me.
The point of this whole rant is that anyone who thinks your experience level (as a measure of merit) has any real bearing on a company making crew appointments...you're naiive in the extreme. Only one thing matters, and that's money. The bottom line. If there is no restriction (i.e. no seniority system) then they'll hire, fire, and promote or upgrade solely according to fiscal necessities.
So I guess I agree with those who said seniority is a pain in the arse, but it's better than the alternative.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to get that off my chest.
Then about five years ago the new management began bending the rules, then they stretched them, then they blatantly broke them wide open. As a result, pilots who were still in short trousers when I started flying jets, were promoted over my head because it suited the companies selfish needs. It had nothing to do with ability...because it was done to a whole group of contemporaries of mine. We just happened to be on the 'wrong type' at the time and the company saw the opportunity to save money on type conversions by promoting junior F/O's from right to left seat. As a result of this outrageous abuse my carreer was damaged permanently...a freeze system operates in the company and I was forced to make bids onto types that I should have naturally been directed onto (with no resultant freeze). Also, the two years more I spent on the 'old' type was a penalisation that I get no future credit for...so I'm two years set back in my carreer development.
One other thing got broken that day. It was the faith and loyalty I had held in my company and its management. I also lost a lot of respect for my union, which let it happen, and the colleagues who took advantage of the opportunity to screw me and my contemporaries for their own personal gain. It hasn't been forgotten. I'm loyal to one thing now. Me.
The point of this whole rant is that anyone who thinks your experience level (as a measure of merit) has any real bearing on a company making crew appointments...you're naiive in the extreme. Only one thing matters, and that's money. The bottom line. If there is no restriction (i.e. no seniority system) then they'll hire, fire, and promote or upgrade solely according to fiscal necessities.
So I guess I agree with those who said seniority is a pain in the arse, but it's better than the alternative.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to get that off my chest.
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Talk about stating the obvious! Of course its the young guys moaning about the seniority system, just like its the old guys trumpeting its merits from the top of Mt.Blanc.
Zulu makes an excellent point though- hours flown. Maybe that could be expanded to involve sub-categories like hours-on-type, and even hours-with-company.
Surely that would be better than getting stuck with a crummy company, with crummy pay, with loads of experience but the only alternative is to move over and become #3507. More of a "worldwide" seniority system, with a few twists.
Zulu makes an excellent point though- hours flown. Maybe that could be expanded to involve sub-categories like hours-on-type, and even hours-with-company.
Surely that would be better than getting stuck with a crummy company, with crummy pay, with loads of experience but the only alternative is to move over and become #3507. More of a "worldwide" seniority system, with a few twists.
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The one great advantage of seniority is that the higher one ascends the mountain, the quieter life becomes - to say nothing of the wonderful view. The lower slopes always were a crowded and noisy place to live.
"If it ain't broke - don't fix it!"
"If it ain't broke - don't fix it!"
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There isn't much to be added to EKG on the subject. The fact that most managements would be happy to abolish seniority overnight should be warning enough that this is a system that benefits pilots.
Of course I can't sensibly jump ship (except to an upstart carrier) once I have ascended the ladder far enough to make the jump to the bottom of the list painful. But why should someone jumping ship be allowed to jump ahead of someone already employed at the other airline. If the other airline lacks sufficiently experienced copilots direct entry captains are allowed by many seniority systems. If sufficient copilots are available for upgrading, they should be given the chance.
Why should we blindly accept the dictum that "labor is mobile these days"? Being "stuck on top of the list" is also an incentive to keep ones place of work alive.
The only alternative to this would be a "global list" system, i.e. all pilots in a country (or even in Europe) being on one seniority list. They would thus form a kind of "guild" and all airlines would hire pilots from the guild. As this would require all pilots to stick together and NOT hire themselves without consent of the guild, and as the age where guilds were thought to be required by the will of god is long gone, such a scenario seems pretty unlikely, although a monopoly on the supply of trained pilots would allow for good contracts.....need to get some oxygen now before this gets out of hand.....
I have experienced how pilots (with seniority) and cabin attendants and other stuff (without seniority) are promoted at my company. These experiences leave me absolutely convinced of the merits of seniority.
As for rosters and vacation, it depends on the structure of the group. If the airline is of fairly constant size with people being hired on a regular basis, seniority is quite OK as everyone moves up the list.
If the airline is expanding rapidly you typically have lots of people hired over a short period who joined (almost) together and will retire (almost) together. As the "younger" ones will remain "younger" by a few weeks or months over their whole career seniority doesn't give them a lot of prospects. Rotating systems might be better here.
Of course I can't sensibly jump ship (except to an upstart carrier) once I have ascended the ladder far enough to make the jump to the bottom of the list painful. But why should someone jumping ship be allowed to jump ahead of someone already employed at the other airline. If the other airline lacks sufficiently experienced copilots direct entry captains are allowed by many seniority systems. If sufficient copilots are available for upgrading, they should be given the chance.
Why should we blindly accept the dictum that "labor is mobile these days"? Being "stuck on top of the list" is also an incentive to keep ones place of work alive.
The only alternative to this would be a "global list" system, i.e. all pilots in a country (or even in Europe) being on one seniority list. They would thus form a kind of "guild" and all airlines would hire pilots from the guild. As this would require all pilots to stick together and NOT hire themselves without consent of the guild, and as the age where guilds were thought to be required by the will of god is long gone, such a scenario seems pretty unlikely, although a monopoly on the supply of trained pilots would allow for good contracts.....need to get some oxygen now before this gets out of hand.....
I have experienced how pilots (with seniority) and cabin attendants and other stuff (without seniority) are promoted at my company. These experiences leave me absolutely convinced of the merits of seniority.
As for rosters and vacation, it depends on the structure of the group. If the airline is of fairly constant size with people being hired on a regular basis, seniority is quite OK as everyone moves up the list.
If the airline is expanding rapidly you typically have lots of people hired over a short period who joined (almost) together and will retire (almost) together. As the "younger" ones will remain "younger" by a few weeks or months over their whole career seniority doesn't give them a lot of prospects. Rotating systems might be better here.
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I think I've got this thing now. If you're with a Co. for, say, 20 years, you have a certain standing within that Co. - O.K. Now, if you decide to jump ship to another outfit you go back to the bottom of the ladder ?? you do'nt slot in at an equivalent level as with previous Co. ?? irrespective of experience, hours on type etc. ?? seems very backward to me(maybe I'm thick) Can't understand how a bunch of well educated and intelligent peole allow themselves to be 'locked in' like this, - if I've got it right that is.
Glad I stopped @ PPL, at least I'm enjoying my flying!! (awaiting the backlash..)
Glad I stopped @ PPL, at least I'm enjoying my flying!! (awaiting the backlash..)
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It's an archaic and silly system. Thats why every other profession uses a meritocracy. Mind you I would love to see a similar system introduced for professional footballers. I can just imagine Alex Ferguson explaining to his record signings,( Veron and Van Nistelrooy)that they must clean the players boots to start with but if they wait long enough they will eventually get a game.
Easyjet seem to do OK without a seniority based system. No complaints from anyone I know who is there.
Harry
p.s . I have only been pruning for 8 months, am I senior enough to have an opinion or do I need to do my time?
Easyjet seem to do OK without a seniority based system. No complaints from anyone I know who is there.
Harry
p.s . I have only been pruning for 8 months, am I senior enough to have an opinion or do I need to do my time?
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Birdbrain
I hope you don't experience the backlash you're expecting. And it's too bad you stopped at a private license. It's true that I don't enjoy private flying as much anymore but I do love my job. In the airline game seniority governs all. Pay, position, vacation, schedule, basically your life. To say that this is worth defending is an understatement. A person fortunate or visioned enough to have hired on with a good company should not be penalized by a nomad without such fortune or vision. This is not a communist world, it is a capitalist one. Fortune is not spread equally amongst us all but favors those lucky or forsighted. This may be akin to the line in the supermarket. Will you let me in front of you because I'm more deserving or are in more of a hurry.
I hope you don't experience the backlash you're expecting. And it's too bad you stopped at a private license. It's true that I don't enjoy private flying as much anymore but I do love my job. In the airline game seniority governs all. Pay, position, vacation, schedule, basically your life. To say that this is worth defending is an understatement. A person fortunate or visioned enough to have hired on with a good company should not be penalized by a nomad without such fortune or vision. This is not a communist world, it is a capitalist one. Fortune is not spread equally amongst us all but favors those lucky or forsighted. This may be akin to the line in the supermarket. Will you let me in front of you because I'm more deserving or are in more of a hurry.
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Carping about the seniority system is useless. It's part of the union protocol and unless unions are made illegal, it's going to stay. It's usually the guys on the outside of the system and the wannabees that complain about it. With so many workers doing the same job within the company, all subject to meeting standards of performance, a meritocracy system would be unworkable. Too many people, too many subjective evaluations by too many individuals.
From what I've seen, most major airline pilots are relatively within the same skill level. The fact that you join a company and it goes bust later on . . . like any worker, those are the breaks of the game. Or sometimes you get lucky . . . lets say you could only get hired by the finacially insovent TWA in the last 10 years and then it's assets get bought by American - instant pay raise and a job wiht a company that you probably couldn't even get an interview with to begin with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
I propose that you Brits and Euros legislate the end of the seniority system in the UK and Europe. Let us know over here in the States how bad the experiment turned out. Easyjet can keep their system and their lousy pay. I'll stick with our system, our pay, benefits, and work rules, even if I am toward the bottom of the seniority list.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
From what I've seen, most major airline pilots are relatively within the same skill level. The fact that you join a company and it goes bust later on . . . like any worker, those are the breaks of the game. Or sometimes you get lucky . . . lets say you could only get hired by the finacially insovent TWA in the last 10 years and then it's assets get bought by American - instant pay raise and a job wiht a company that you probably couldn't even get an interview with to begin with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
I propose that you Brits and Euros legislate the end of the seniority system in the UK and Europe. Let us know over here in the States how bad the experiment turned out. Easyjet can keep their system and their lousy pay. I'll stick with our system, our pay, benefits, and work rules, even if I am toward the bottom of the seniority list.
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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ha ha ha Brad, you make me laugh.
[quote]
Seniority´s great fault is the absolutely necessary premise that all men are equal in ability....But the seniority system must ever persist if only because it is a protection of the weak, who are everywhere in the greatest number. Ernest Gann, Fate is the Hunter
[\quote]
Perhaps you see the irony in your comments after reading this quote? Seniority ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT benefit those with above average skill, work ethic, or experience It benefits only those (as you say) who were lucky enough to get hired by a company that has managed to remain solvent for any length of time.
I sure think you would have another view if you were a high time 744 captain with an airline that went bust (or was "merged"), through no fault of your own.
Example- Airline A goes bust due to management incompetence. Airline A pilots go to bottom of list at Airline B. Former Airline A managers are hired by Airline C into high paying cushy positions with lots of benefits.
[quote]
Seniority´s great fault is the absolutely necessary premise that all men are equal in ability....But the seniority system must ever persist if only because it is a protection of the weak, who are everywhere in the greatest number. Ernest Gann, Fate is the Hunter
[\quote]
Perhaps you see the irony in your comments after reading this quote? Seniority ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT benefit those with above average skill, work ethic, or experience It benefits only those (as you say) who were lucky enough to get hired by a company that has managed to remain solvent for any length of time.
I sure think you would have another view if you were a high time 744 captain with an airline that went bust (or was "merged"), through no fault of your own.
Example- Airline A goes bust due to management incompetence. Airline A pilots go to bottom of list at Airline B. Former Airline A managers are hired by Airline C into high paying cushy positions with lots of benefits.
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Jock, so glad to give you a laugh. And about Mr. Gann, he wrote books man. He flew DC-3's back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Jesus or Mahamad he ain't. Quoting his "opinions" as gospel and then resting an entire argument on it just won't work. And weak sisters are weeded out around here. Roadtrip is right. Those boys across the pond can give this a shot, then let us know how it works out.