Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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The decisions are being made based on the Ash charts that are published every 6 hours by the met office.
The same Ash Charts that were used when Scottish and Northern English airspace was 'opened' on an opportune basis as the charts indicated was viable over the past 5 days.
Of course the cynics on here who believe in conspiracy theories etc will try to claim that the Met office is being forced into doctoring the charts because of so called 'test' flights by the likes of BA.
I'd rather believe the charts than take data from one flight by BA as being an indication that is is 100% safe.
This whole episode is reliant on science - one flight over UK airspace is not sound basis for decision making and has nothing to do with airspace becoming available to IFR traffic tomorrow.
The same Ash Charts that were used when Scottish and Northern English airspace was 'opened' on an opportune basis as the charts indicated was viable over the past 5 days.
Of course the cynics on here who believe in conspiracy theories etc will try to claim that the Met office is being forced into doctoring the charts because of so called 'test' flights by the likes of BA.
I'd rather believe the charts than take data from one flight by BA as being an indication that is is 100% safe.
This whole episode is reliant on science - one flight over UK airspace is not sound basis for decision making and has nothing to do with airspace becoming available to IFR traffic tomorrow.
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Eurocontrol press release
Revised approach to air traffic affected
by the volcanic ash cloud
Brussels, Belgium – EUROCONTROL hosted a telephone conference
earlier today between the European Commission, several European
States, Air Navigation Service Providers and technical experts.
The conference concluded that, while the initial reaction by the States
was prudent and reduced risk to an absolute minimum, it was now time
to move towards a harmonized European approach (set out below) that
permitted flights – but only where safety was not compromised.
This conclusion was submitted to the meeting of European Transport
Ministers this afternoon and was adopted.
Accordingly a limited “No-fly zone” will be established by the States
concerned, based on forecasts from the VAAC. EUROCONTROL will
provide the data and the forecast to States every 6 hours.
Aircraft Operators will be permitted to operate outside this zone. In their
decision as to whether to fly, they will be supported by shared data
including advice from the scientific community (meteo, volcanic ash
proliferation etc.) – including safety assessments supported by tests
under the oversight of the competent Safety Authorities.
Member States have been asked to formally confirm their agreement.
Meanwhile EUROCONTROL will start the provisional application of this
approach.
In addition the ICAO European and North Atlantic Office are organising
a meeting to consider the effects on the North Atlantic Region.
These actions will be implemented as soon as possible and, in any
case, by 06:00 UTC tomorrow morning.
The conference also concluded that, in time, it should be possible to
move towards an approach in which full discretion is given to Aircraft
Operators.
From eurocontrol.int
by the volcanic ash cloud
Brussels, Belgium – EUROCONTROL hosted a telephone conference
earlier today between the European Commission, several European
States, Air Navigation Service Providers and technical experts.
The conference concluded that, while the initial reaction by the States
was prudent and reduced risk to an absolute minimum, it was now time
to move towards a harmonized European approach (set out below) that
permitted flights – but only where safety was not compromised.
This conclusion was submitted to the meeting of European Transport
Ministers this afternoon and was adopted.
Accordingly a limited “No-fly zone” will be established by the States
concerned, based on forecasts from the VAAC. EUROCONTROL will
provide the data and the forecast to States every 6 hours.
Aircraft Operators will be permitted to operate outside this zone. In their
decision as to whether to fly, they will be supported by shared data
including advice from the scientific community (meteo, volcanic ash
proliferation etc.) – including safety assessments supported by tests
under the oversight of the competent Safety Authorities.
Member States have been asked to formally confirm their agreement.
Meanwhile EUROCONTROL will start the provisional application of this
approach.
In addition the ICAO European and North Atlantic Office are organising
a meeting to consider the effects on the North Atlantic Region.
These actions will be implemented as soon as possible and, in any
case, by 06:00 UTC tomorrow morning.
The conference also concluded that, in time, it should be possible to
move towards an approach in which full discretion is given to Aircraft
Operators.
From eurocontrol.int
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the airlines are crying about losing a bit of money. WAAHH!!!. they obviously dont' care about people's safety.
EU ministers strike deal to reduce ash no-fly zone
"The European Union reached a deal on Monday to cut the size of a no-fly zone caused by a cloud of ash from an Icelandic volcano, under pressure from frustrated airlines losing $250 million a day."
EU ministers strike deal to reduce ash no-fly zone
"The European Union reached a deal on Monday to cut the size of a no-fly zone caused by a cloud of ash from an Icelandic volcano, under pressure from frustrated airlines losing $250 million a day."
I Have Control
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"Expert" PPrune Contributors.
A lot of nervy scaremongers have gone very quiet. Now why would that be?
They had all the plausible arguments for the huge risks and dangers attached to going flying within 1000nm of that wicked volcano.
Many of us have operated within 25nm of active volcanoes in theatres of operation like Indonesia, Sicily, and Iceland. Not forgetting Mexico and Western USA/Canada.
I suspect there's not a professional pilot among the naysayers who have suddenly gone mute. And the truth is that there's nothing they resent more than opinions from opinionated pilots which concern operating commercial aircraft. Chumps!
They had all the plausible arguments for the huge risks and dangers attached to going flying within 1000nm of that wicked volcano.
Many of us have operated within 25nm of active volcanoes in theatres of operation like Indonesia, Sicily, and Iceland. Not forgetting Mexico and Western USA/Canada.
I suspect there's not a professional pilot among the naysayers who have suddenly gone mute. And the truth is that there's nothing they resent more than opinions from opinionated pilots which concern operating commercial aircraft. Chumps!
the airlines are crying about losing a bit of money. WAAHH!!!. they obviously dont' care about people's safety.
Really, why do these idiots crawl out the woodwork every time something big happens?
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ETOPS anyone? 4 engines better.....
Airbus girl, on a previous post, invites us to consult Boeing's advice with regard to meeting volcanic contributions to the atmosphere.
Boeing says "Flight crew should note that airborne weather radar is INEFFECTIVE for distinguishing ash and small dust particles.
"If you do fly into volcanic ash, the engines may respond by surging, torching from the tailpipe, and flameouts can occur...."
"If ash fouls the pitot tube, the IAS can decrease or fluctuate erratically...."
So Boeing recommends, if finding oneself in a volcanic ash cloud, the following steps:
1) Reduce thrust
2) Turn off auto throttle
3) Exit, with 180 degree DESCENDING turn
4) Turn on anti- ice systems
5) Start the APU for systems power
6) Crew Oxygen may be needed
7) Try to start the engines
8) Monitor EGT
9) Fly by a/s and pitch attitude.
There you go boys, now you know what to do....
However, as a previous poster has pointed out, the permission for 777 and 767 to fly across vast ocean spaces with 2 engines is relying on past experience of hardly ever having 2 donkeys stop breathing at once.......
Other posters have warned that the gradual failure over time of a jet engine may be greatly accelerated with volcanic glass ingestion, one vulcanologist has compared the action of an Icelandic volcano blasting off under a glacier to pouring water on a chip pan fire, this being one of the reasons not all volcano dust is the same.
If the airlines and the pilots and the pax are just too antsy to wait for the upper winds to change, perhaps would it be wise to stick to 4 engines, two of which are changed after relatively short exposure to interesting conditions, and the other two run for longer.....
Boeing says "Flight crew should note that airborne weather radar is INEFFECTIVE for distinguishing ash and small dust particles.
"If you do fly into volcanic ash, the engines may respond by surging, torching from the tailpipe, and flameouts can occur...."
"If ash fouls the pitot tube, the IAS can decrease or fluctuate erratically...."
So Boeing recommends, if finding oneself in a volcanic ash cloud, the following steps:
1) Reduce thrust
2) Turn off auto throttle
3) Exit, with 180 degree DESCENDING turn
4) Turn on anti- ice systems
5) Start the APU for systems power
6) Crew Oxygen may be needed
7) Try to start the engines
8) Monitor EGT
9) Fly by a/s and pitch attitude.
There you go boys, now you know what to do....
However, as a previous poster has pointed out, the permission for 777 and 767 to fly across vast ocean spaces with 2 engines is relying on past experience of hardly ever having 2 donkeys stop breathing at once.......
Other posters have warned that the gradual failure over time of a jet engine may be greatly accelerated with volcanic glass ingestion, one vulcanologist has compared the action of an Icelandic volcano blasting off under a glacier to pouring water on a chip pan fire, this being one of the reasons not all volcano dust is the same.
If the airlines and the pilots and the pax are just too antsy to wait for the upper winds to change, perhaps would it be wise to stick to 4 engines, two of which are changed after relatively short exposure to interesting conditions, and the other two run for longer.....
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Norway FIR has been open for TFC today, and quite a few flights from Keflavik and the US has reached Oslo. Norwegian Air Shuttle is flyging to GCLP at FL400 above the VA with 2 or 3 flights afternoon evening, with SAS stating they will overfly above 370 tomorrow to destinations south if the cloud.
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Mods seem to be very active on this forum, good job.
As I was going to reply to tcmel, Peno and vlieger, I noticed that their post had been deleted.
Yet, fortunately there is no second volcanic eruption going on in Iceland.
I would like to point you at another thread on Pprune about volcanic ash considerations but in relation to helicopter traffic.
Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?
Lets hope the mountain shuts up soon.
As I was going to reply to tcmel, Peno and vlieger, I noticed that their post had been deleted.
Yet, fortunately there is no second volcanic eruption going on in Iceland.
I would like to point you at another thread on Pprune about volcanic ash considerations but in relation to helicopter traffic.
Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?
Lets hope the mountain shuts up soon.
latest map from met office
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation...1271698103.png
erupting again to between fl100 and fl150
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation...1271698103.png
erupting again to between fl100 and fl150
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UPDATE 18.30 CET: Airspace open in CZ Balkans BG HU, southern IT and FR, GR PO PTSL ES TR NO and parts of SE
UPDATE 18.30 CET: Airspace closed in BE DK EE FI DE IR NL RO CH, parts of UA and UK but new process in place to speed up opening
EUROCONTROL via Twitter
UPDATE 18.30 CET: Airspace closed in BE DK EE FI DE IR NL RO CH, parts of UA and UK but new process in place to speed up opening
EUROCONTROL via Twitter
Just, five minutes ago had a 737 over the top, looked like inbound Liege - probably TNT. At around 1745 heard a jet overhead but not seen and before that heard what sounded like an An12 droning. This is between Eindhoven and Maastricht in NL between Belgium and Germany.
Roy Hudd:
The naysayers like me are simply applying the precautionary principle. Would you rather lose a weeks pay or watch your fleet become progressively grounded by a lack of engines with working hot sections and lose all your pay perhaps permanently?
Until you can be satisfied it is safe to do so, and demonstrate that it is not going to be financial suicde from an engine maintenance perspective, you cannot fly.
No one to my knowledge has developed a model of what is a "safe" ash concentration that can be digested by a modern jet engine without unacceptable deleterious effects on hot section life...
Lets load some aircraft with the commentators here who bag Government, Airlines, Aircraft and engine manufacturers, NAT, meteorology bureaux, the ones for call for instant test results and African sand jockey pilots who have flown with Volcano plumes (VFR) and you can all go and do the test flights for us...
A lot of nervy scaremongers have gone very quiet. Now why would that be?
They had all the plausible arguments for the huge risks and dangers attached to going flying within 1000nm of that wicked volcano.
Many of us have operated within 25nm of active volcanoes in theatres of operation like Indonesia, Sicily, and Iceland. Not forgetting Mexico and Western USA/Canada.
I suspect there's not a professional pilot among the naysayers who have suddenly gone mute. And the truth is that there's nothing they resent more than opinions from opinionated pilots which concern operating commercial aircraft.
They had all the plausible arguments for the huge risks and dangers attached to going flying within 1000nm of that wicked volcano.
Many of us have operated within 25nm of active volcanoes in theatres of operation like Indonesia, Sicily, and Iceland. Not forgetting Mexico and Western USA/Canada.
I suspect there's not a professional pilot among the naysayers who have suddenly gone mute. And the truth is that there's nothing they resent more than opinions from opinionated pilots which concern operating commercial aircraft.
The naysayers like me are simply applying the precautionary principle. Would you rather lose a weeks pay or watch your fleet become progressively grounded by a lack of engines with working hot sections and lose all your pay perhaps permanently?
Until you can be satisfied it is safe to do so, and demonstrate that it is not going to be financial suicde from an engine maintenance perspective, you cannot fly.
No one to my knowledge has developed a model of what is a "safe" ash concentration that can be digested by a modern jet engine without unacceptable deleterious effects on hot section life...
Lets load some aircraft with the commentators here who bag Government, Airlines, Aircraft and engine manufacturers, NAT, meteorology bureaux, the ones for call for instant test results and African sand jockey pilots who have flown with Volcano plumes (VFR) and you can all go and do the test flights for us...
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erupting again to between fl100 and fl150
Yes, but all reports have it as steam/lava primarily, not the odious ash...
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I was ridiculed in the pub on Friday...and banned from this site on Saturday for daring to suggest that maybe...just maybe ...the predictions of 'Doom if you fly' were over the top. But that is not an issue to me now (and hopefully not to the admin 
)
However,will we ever have a better chance of studying this situation again without the crisis which is still continuing? I doubt it. But hopefully heads will not roll as l'm sure that all the NATS,MET Office etc etc personnal do a fine job and they also need to learn from this...so no witch-hunt please.
I am due to fly from Manchester to Dubai with Emirates on Thursday afternoon.
I have everything crossed
)However,will we ever have a better chance of studying this situation again without the crisis which is still continuing? I doubt it. But hopefully heads will not roll as l'm sure that all the NATS,MET Office etc etc personnal do a fine job and they also need to learn from this...so no witch-hunt please.
I am due to fly from Manchester to Dubai with Emirates on Thursday afternoon.
I have everything crossed
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3-d or 2-d no-fly zone?
It'll be interesting to see what airspace is closed and how big the buffer is - will it be 2-d or 3-d (i.e. only certain FLs) that will be closed?
Boys and Girls a bit of the topic and might be a stupid question, is there such a thing as a PPM (sand) used by engine manufactures for certification. I have never heard of it but I am assured there is.
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Lets load some aircraft with the commentators here who bag Government, Airlines, Aircraft and engine manufacturers, NAT, meteorology bureaux, the ones for call for instant test results and African sand jockey pilots who have flown with Volcano plumes (VFR) and you can all go and do the test flights for us...