Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Anyone know what excuse the French and Dutch have used to open Paris and Amsterdam - they seem to quite busy now. But they are still well within the VAAC ash cloud predicted area.
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Rumours, stress rumours, about Flybe BE128 flight from GLA to BHD "may have suffered damage". I know no more. Anyone? Bull**** gossiping or .... ?
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I cannot post chapter and verse as the rules and regulations are not public domain.
EUR Doc 019
INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION ORGANIZATION
VOLCANIC ASH CONTINGENCY PLAN
EUR REGION
Second Edition
September 2009
Explains the process nicely
Last edited by Back at NH; 20th Apr 2010 at 13:59. Reason: spelling
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Quote from BA today
British Airways said it had scrapped plans to operate some long-haul flights from Heathrow airport. The airline said: "Despite the fact that airspace over most European countries is open, UK airspace remains effectively closed. We deeply regret the great inconvenience caused to our customers as a result of Nats' decision to close UK airspace over the last six days."
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Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Tuesday April 20, 1500 The situation regarding the volcanic eruption in Iceland remains dynamic and the latest information from the Met Office shows that the situation will continue to be variable. Based on the latest Met Office information, part of Scottish and Northern Irish airspace including Aberdeen, Inverness and Edinburgh airports will continue to be available from 1900 today to 0100 tomorrow, Wednesday 21 April, and also south to Newcastle Airport. Glasgow and Teesside airports will additionally become available in this time period. Restrictions will remain in place over the rest of UK airspace below 20,000ft. Flights above the ash cloud are now permitted in the UK; between 1900 today and 0100 tomorrow, this will enable aircraft movements above 20,000ft in UK airspace. We will continue to monitor Met Office information and the situation is likely to change during the course of the day. We will make a further statement at approximately 2100 today. NATS is maintaining close dialogue with the Met Office and with the UK's safety regulator, the CAA, in respect of the international civil aviation policy we follow in applying restrictions to use of airspace. We are working closely with Government, airports and airlines, and airframe and aero engine manufacturers to get a better understanding of the effects of the ash cloud and to seek solutions.
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pressure on pilots
Buckster
how much pressure will pilots be under now ? assuming they have final say on safety ? is it still ok these days for a pilot to say no - that route at that time is unsafe ?
how much pressure will pilots be under now ? assuming they have final say on safety ? is it still ok these days for a pilot to say no - that route at that time is unsafe ?
I think that each country should define the portions of national airspace that can be used for a certain period of time and Eurocontrol should gather that information and define routes (like NAT organized tracks) to be used for (lets say) a 6 hour period of time. Companies should organize themselves to bring their passengers to (open) aerodromes closer, as much as possible, of their passenger destinations. (This could be a great test to Star Alliance, One World and others, to coordinate efforts in a crisis like this one).
Indeed, this is a great opportunity for the airlines to join efforts and to talk about cooperation issues, because this is only the very first one, of future world crises.
EU should lead and learn from its ineptness and lack of preparation, for catastrophes like this. Almost a week without any idea how to deal with this drama is not a good "business card" for the European Union. Paranoia is the enemy of common sense and all that the "authorities" have done so far, was to take flight safety to its "zero risk detent". Flight safety however, is the compromise of taking an operation under acceptable risk levels. The no fly decision leaves us without risks but, without operations also...
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Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Tuesday April 20, 1500
The situation regarding the volcanic eruption in Iceland remains dynamic and the latest information from the Met Office shows that the situation will continue to be variable.
Based on the latest Met Office information, part of Scottish and Northern Irish airspace including Aberdeen, Inverness and Edinburgh airports will continue to be available from 1900 today to 0100 tomorrow, Wednesday 21 April, and also south to Newcastle Airport. Glasgow and Teesside airports will additionally become available in this time period. Restrictions will remain in place over the rest of UK airspace below 20,000ft.
Flights above the ash cloud are now permitted in the UK; between 1900 today and 0100 tomorrow, this will enable aircraft movements above 20,000ft in UK airspace.
We will continue to monitor Met Office information and the situation is likely to change during the course of the day. We will make a further statement at approximately 2100 today.
NATS is maintaining close dialogue with the Met Office and with the UK's safety regulator, the CAA, in respect of the international civil aviation policy we follow in applying restrictions to use of airspace.
We are working closely with Government, airports and airlines, and airframe and aero engine manufacturers to get a better understanding of the effects of the ash cloud and to seek solutions
The situation regarding the volcanic eruption in Iceland remains dynamic and the latest information from the Met Office shows that the situation will continue to be variable.
Based on the latest Met Office information, part of Scottish and Northern Irish airspace including Aberdeen, Inverness and Edinburgh airports will continue to be available from 1900 today to 0100 tomorrow, Wednesday 21 April, and also south to Newcastle Airport. Glasgow and Teesside airports will additionally become available in this time period. Restrictions will remain in place over the rest of UK airspace below 20,000ft.
Flights above the ash cloud are now permitted in the UK; between 1900 today and 0100 tomorrow, this will enable aircraft movements above 20,000ft in UK airspace.
We will continue to monitor Met Office information and the situation is likely to change during the course of the day. We will make a further statement at approximately 2100 today.
NATS is maintaining close dialogue with the Met Office and with the UK's safety regulator, the CAA, in respect of the international civil aviation policy we follow in applying restrictions to use of airspace.
We are working closely with Government, airports and airlines, and airframe and aero engine manufacturers to get a better understanding of the effects of the ash cloud and to seek solutions
Nats have been adding the highlighted line above since last night's update. Things will change very soon, I think
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I cannot post chapter and verse as the rules and regulations are not public domain.
Regulations not published??
EUR Doc 019
INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION ORGANIZATION
VOLCANIC ASH CONTINGENCY PLAN
EUR REGION
Second Edition
September 2009
Regulations not published??
EUR Doc 019
INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION ORGANIZATION
VOLCANIC ASH CONTINGENCY PLAN
EUR REGION
Second Edition
September 2009
Downloadable here, no login required :
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Monumental Farce!
The disparity between the two published ash cloud charts from the UK Met Office & Eurocontrol combined with NATS's and Eurocontrol's respective differing interpretations of flying in what essentially amounts to the same contaminated air warrants causing this entire event to descend into a monumental farce.
If NATS's so called "zero tolerance" interpretation of the ICAO regulations regarding flying in volcanic ash is correct then I trust they are taking down the registration details of all aircraft currently being flown within the contmainated area over mainland Europe prior to issuing future bans on them ever entering UK Airspace.
After all we wouldn't want these entirely unsafe aircraft to enter UK airspace risking multiple engine failures and randomly descending onto the heads of the very unsuspecting citizens which they are currently going to such extreme lengths to protect!
If NATS's so called "zero tolerance" interpretation of the ICAO regulations regarding flying in volcanic ash is correct then I trust they are taking down the registration details of all aircraft currently being flown within the contmainated area over mainland Europe prior to issuing future bans on them ever entering UK Airspace.
After all we wouldn't want these entirely unsafe aircraft to enter UK airspace risking multiple engine failures and randomly descending onto the heads of the very unsuspecting citizens which they are currently going to such extreme lengths to protect!
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Ash Cloud Simulation
While surfing the web I found this piece of information:
Rheinisches Institut für Umweltforschung - EURAD-Projekt
Shows some neat films and predictions at various altitudes.
Regards,
FR
Rheinisches Institut für Umweltforschung - EURAD-Projekt
Shows some neat films and predictions at various altitudes.
Regards,
FR
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Diedtrying
The reason why they are flying in over UK airspace is because they are above the altitude in which ash clouds are this allows them to avoid the ash clouds to some extent.
However most UK mainland airports are closed because the climb to that altitude would encounter in going through the ash clouds hence this factor is the most dangerous.
The reason why they are flying in over UK airspace is because they are above the altitude in which ash clouds are this allows them to avoid the ash clouds to some extent.
However most UK mainland airports are closed because the climb to that altitude would encounter in going through the ash clouds hence this factor is the most dangerous.
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Simonpro,
Was it? is that why the UK airspace is closed because they have found ash contaminant in the atmosphere?
Is it that simple ?
The aircraft that have been operating VFR don't seem to have encountered it to a level that has been detrimental to flight.
If the UK airspace has been closed due to contaminants, at what concentration are those levels and where and at what levels ?
Please, do tell.. the UK avaition industry would appreciate you imparting that knowledge, perhaps NATS too.
Are the MET office using some s**tty model, that doesnt seem to gel with what the rest of the EU airspace models are and what the actual facts are ?
... kind of like that whole manipulation of data, AGW, Bullcr@P model to support global warming thing that harks back to CRU/Jones "hide the decline" thing ?
Is our industry in the UK facing yet another kick in the cajones becuase the MET office is relying on B/S models that are not fit for purpose ?
Or the failure of our politicians to deal with a situation with a foot in reality.. hmm.. rather like doubling APD due to global warming.. only to tell us that the money from APD is being used to prop up the banks ??
That exactly what I am doing, you dont need any help on being discredited, you continue to do a fine job of that yourself on the Global Warming thread.
That fact is Simonpro, our politicians are useless, they stand around politiking, instead of dealing with a situation and indeed "fiddle* while rome burns" and fail to gather factual data, or even any data, meanwhile, everybody else picks up the pieces and foots the bill.
If I pay for a dog, I don't expect to bark myself.
*Not just their expenses
Because until yesterday morning the ash was covering most of Europe. I don't know about the UK but at least where I am they did open the airways in regions that were unaffected by ash, this is still the case today. Altitudes in which no ash has been found are open. Altitudes where ash is still present are not open. It's quite simple.
Is it that simple ?
The aircraft that have been operating VFR don't seem to have encountered it to a level that has been detrimental to flight.
If the UK airspace has been closed due to contaminants, at what concentration are those levels and where and at what levels ?
Please, do tell.. the UK avaition industry would appreciate you imparting that knowledge, perhaps NATS too.
If NATS has decided to close everything regardless of this information then that is their concern. I have no idea why they would do that.
... kind of like that whole manipulation of data, AGW, Bullcr@P model to support global warming thing that harks back to CRU/Jones "hide the decline" thing ?
Is our industry in the UK facing yet another kick in the cajones becuase the MET office is relying on B/S models that are not fit for purpose ?
Or the failure of our politicians to deal with a situation with a foot in reality.. hmm.. rather like doubling APD due to global warming.. only to tell us that the money from APD is being used to prop up the banks ??
Perhaps you'd care to stick to discussing this matter rather than attempting to discredit me.
That fact is Simonpro, our politicians are useless, they stand around politiking, instead of dealing with a situation and indeed "fiddle* while rome burns" and fail to gather factual data, or even any data, meanwhile, everybody else picks up the pieces and foots the bill.
If I pay for a dog, I don't expect to bark myself.
*Not just their expenses
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The reason why they are flying in over UK airspace is because they are above the altitude in which ash clouds are this allows them to avoid the ash clouds to some extent.
Yeah thats all well and good, until they have a engine our or a de-pressurisation then have to decend into the ash concentration !!!
Yeah thats all well and good, until they have a engine our or a de-pressurisation then have to decend into the ash concentration !!!
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Concemtration etc
Guys,
The Statistically Safe concentration needs to be determined with specifics to Particle size and composition.
The particle size would be easy: similar to suspended dust and smoke found often over Africa/ Asia.
The composition would be trickier esp regarding quality of toxins and effect on breathing.
However, considering that even with deposits on cars etc, there are no widespread issues of running eyes, short breath etc,
It may be prudent to assume that the flight is possible in the plume.
Also it is one thing to fly into the cloud when released because concentrations are high, the time bound dissipation will always reduce the threat.
The Statistically Safe concentration needs to be determined with specifics to Particle size and composition.
The particle size would be easy: similar to suspended dust and smoke found often over Africa/ Asia.
The composition would be trickier esp regarding quality of toxins and effect on breathing.
However, considering that even with deposits on cars etc, there are no widespread issues of running eyes, short breath etc,
It may be prudent to assume that the flight is possible in the plume.
Also it is one thing to fly into the cloud when released because concentrations are high, the time bound dissipation will always reduce the threat.
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I'm 25 miles from LHR and looking out of the window at the perfect visibility. Whatever the arguments about long term engine damage, there is no way that an aircraft would be in any danger approaching LHR today.
If the CAA (or NATS) force the BA inbound aircraft to divert to another airport within the Met Office 'guess-map', then somebody needs to question their judgement.
If the CAA (or NATS) force the BA inbound aircraft to divert to another airport within the Met Office 'guess-map', then somebody needs to question their judgement.
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I'm 25 miles from LHR and looking out of the window at the perfect visibility. Whatever the arguements about long term engine damage, there is no way that an aircraft would be in any danger approaching LHR today.
If the CAA (or NATS) force the BA inbound aircraft to divert to another airport within the Met Office 'guess-map', then somebody needs to question their judgement.
I think you will find that they already have been forced, MAD, BCN and NCE.
If the CAA (or NATS) force the BA inbound aircraft to divert to another airport within the Met Office 'guess-map', then somebody needs to question their judgement.
I think you will find that they already have been forced, MAD, BCN and NCE.
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Met Office or CFMU
Dear All
My two cents, which map is correct?, the CFMU issued at 1200UTC or the Met Office Sig Wx chart issued via Jeppesen at 1230UTC showing two completely different ash cloud concentrations.
How can anyone make a correct decision with such a vast difference in the charts?
Vince
My two cents, which map is correct?, the CFMU issued at 1200UTC or the Met Office Sig Wx chart issued via Jeppesen at 1230UTC showing two completely different ash cloud concentrations.
How can anyone make a correct decision with such a vast difference in the charts?
Vince