Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 18
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From: Europe
Some French airports in the south have reopened
The French Prime Minister Francois Fillon has just announced that airports South of an axis Nice Bordeaux have reopened (Marseille, Toulouse, Bordeaux, etc.) this Sunday afternoon.
North of this axis the airports will remain closed until Tuesday morning.
North of this axis the airports will remain closed until Tuesday morning.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 25
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From: US
may i suggest a solution i have not heard yet
--- flight plan all flights BELOW 20k feet till clear of ash. I KNOW .lots more fuel but if worked out and tickets charged accordingly there yiou are . even long haul flights could be planned to climb after cloud and continue . most have the fuel capacity . i stand back and await brickbats
Good theory, if it weren't for all recent Met forecasts showing no significant ash ABOVE 20k.... It's the getting up there that's at issue. But I agree, If you can get up there, through the mess fast enough, and "blow out" the muck, you're good, till you have to get through it on descent....
--- flight plan all flights BELOW 20k feet till clear of ash. I KNOW .lots more fuel but if worked out and tickets charged accordingly there yiou are . even long haul flights could be planned to climb after cloud and continue . most have the fuel capacity . i stand back and await brickbats
Good theory, if it weren't for all recent Met forecasts showing no significant ash ABOVE 20k.... It's the getting up there that's at issue. But I agree, If you can get up there, through the mess fast enough, and "blow out" the muck, you're good, till you have to get through it on descent....
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Samsonite
According to reporting from the Finnish Air Force, the F18s did not fly in or near any cloud formations and did not see the dust particles that caused the damage.
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
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From: UK
.... and closing the airspace or eventually opening it up again :ugh.
BD
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
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From: amsterdam
KL867
All four engines failed leaving only critical systems on backup electrical power. One report assigns the engine shutdown to the turning of the ash into a glass coating inside the engines that fooled the engine temperature sensors and led to an auto-shutdown of all four engines.
When all four main generators shut off due to the failure of all the engines, a momentary power interruption occurs when the flight instruments transfer to standby power. Standby power on the 747-400 is provided by two batteries and inverters. The captain performed the engine restart procedure which was not successful on the first few attempts and was repeated until restart was achieved. On some of the attempts, as one or more (but not all) engines started to operate, the main generator would switch back on. This switching on and off caused repeated power transfer interruptions to the flight instruments. The temporary blanking of the instruments gave the appearance that standby power had failed. These power transfers were later verified from the flight data recorder.
After descending more than 14,000 feet, Captain Karl van der Elst and crew were finally able to restart the engines and safely land the plane. In this case the ash caused more than us 80 million in damage to the aircraft (requiring all four engines to be replaced), but no lives were lost and no one was injured.As of 2010, the aircraft is still in service with KLM under the KLM Asia livery.
Dutch are stupid but also lucky sometimes
Thnx for the video, and offcourse i agree safety first.
Lets not forget also in this case the flight went through very thick cloud of dust. !!!
When all four main generators shut off due to the failure of all the engines, a momentary power interruption occurs when the flight instruments transfer to standby power. Standby power on the 747-400 is provided by two batteries and inverters. The captain performed the engine restart procedure which was not successful on the first few attempts and was repeated until restart was achieved. On some of the attempts, as one or more (but not all) engines started to operate, the main generator would switch back on. This switching on and off caused repeated power transfer interruptions to the flight instruments. The temporary blanking of the instruments gave the appearance that standby power had failed. These power transfers were later verified from the flight data recorder.
After descending more than 14,000 feet, Captain Karl van der Elst and crew were finally able to restart the engines and safely land the plane. In this case the ash caused more than us 80 million in damage to the aircraft (requiring all four engines to be replaced), but no lives were lost and no one was injured.As of 2010, the aircraft is still in service with KLM under the KLM Asia livery.
Dutch are stupid but also lucky sometimes
Thnx for the video, and offcourse i agree safety first.
Lets not forget also in this case the flight went through very thick cloud of dust. !!!
Joined: Apr 2004
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
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From: EGMH..a down, not yet out, formerly awesome airfield
Anyone heard anything from the Facility for Airborne Atmospheric Measurement aircraft G-LUXE ?
Has lots of bits and bobs fitted, not sure if its any good in this situation but would have thought so.
Has lots of bits and bobs fitted, not sure if its any good in this situation but would have thought so.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 12
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From: hampshire
With the levels of eg. British citizens now stuck abroad, and the possible length of time this may continue, the eventual repatriation effort might turn into a humanitarian one ! Might we see the British government(election pending) stepping in or can the airlines and charter operators cope to bring this to a swift end.
JMO
JMO
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 85
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From: Alps
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountee
Also how can anyone doubt the damage to engines when you see that Fighter jet engine on the Sky News reports?
Nobody will contradict that volcanic ash can have such an effect on engines.
I would like to know what kind of conditions that fighter was flying in when that damage occurred.
I bet it was not in a clear blue sky, clear of all visible fumes!
Originally Posted by mountee
Also how can anyone doubt the damage to engines when you see that Fighter jet engine on the Sky News reports?
Nobody will contradict that volcanic ash can have such an effect on engines.
I would like to know what kind of conditions that fighter was flying in when that damage occurred.
I bet it was not in a clear blue sky, clear of all visible fumes!
But: How did these Engines look BEFORE the flight into the cloud?
Hopefully engineering at LH, KLM, AUA, BA,... that were doing very publicity effective flights with their bosses on board of one single aircraft (!!) have got a very good documentation about the state of the engines directly before todays departure.
If not, it either looks like nothing else than normal wear or "almost total destruction", depending on what you want to see.
They need data to compare, not just a few pictures to create an illusion!
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 428
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From: London
ETOPS implications
It's not simply engine failures during volcanic ash exposure that needs to be considered.
Is it not possible that a period of significant ash exposure may have implications for engine in-flight shutdown (IFSD) rates in the weeks and months to come? Is it safe to assume that engines that have spent significant time operating in ash environments will have the same IFSD rates as those that have not?
ETOPS certification depends on statistical assumptions based on IFSD rates. If ash exposure leads to changes in IFSD rates then these assumptions may no longer be valid. The fact that both engines on an airframe will likely share the same recent history of ash exposure is also relevant.
Is it not possible that a period of significant ash exposure may have implications for engine in-flight shutdown (IFSD) rates in the weeks and months to come? Is it safe to assume that engines that have spent significant time operating in ash environments will have the same IFSD rates as those that have not?
ETOPS certification depends on statistical assumptions based on IFSD rates. If ash exposure leads to changes in IFSD rates then these assumptions may no longer be valid. The fact that both engines on an airframe will likely share the same recent history of ash exposure is also relevant.
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,649
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From: Europe
Well, there we go, KLM starts flying commercially tonight. No passengers, only freight, but still. According to the CEO European airspace is safe with the exception of parts between Iceland and Russia.
Hope the rest follows soon.
Hope the rest follows soon.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 60
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From: Singapore
Fond memories: Daily wiping off ash from the 1991 Mount Pinotubo eruption from my car with my feather duster before driving to Singapore Changi airport for flight duty.
Not a fond memory: 3 Engines quitting on a Singapore 747 from the plum of Mount Gulunggung just three weeks after Capt Moody's famous glide.
I guess its all down to the intensity of the ash. If they allow flights, I hope it only be VFR/Day.
Not a fond memory: 3 Engines quitting on a Singapore 747 from the plum of Mount Gulunggung just three weeks after Capt Moody's famous glide.
I guess its all down to the intensity of the ash. If they allow flights, I hope it only be VFR/Day.
Last edited by Fatfish; 18th April 2010 at 17:34.
Joined: Mar 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
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From: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Originally Posted by ElyFlyer
Breaking News from a press conference by Eurocontrol. They are hoping 50% of flights in europe will be able to operate tomorrow. Some good news at last!
