Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Beady Eye
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BD
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Stereotyping you thing, Admiral? I rather think it a nationally identifiable characteristic, something along the lines of German efficiency and fondness for logic. In the case of the Dutch, though, their reflexive recourse to arrogance may well be considered cautionary. Something for the thought processes of KLM passengers, perhaps.
LG
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Government Action
Has the givernment done anything to get the UK tech experts together on what is the low ash risk threshold. The UK may have more expertise on this than any other country: BA, other airlines, RR, the Met Office Unit (VAAC), CAA, NATS and no doubt some other UK experts.
I'd hope they are all meeting first thing tomorrow, if not already.
There seems a big silence.
Of course you could do this on a European level - but you can't fly anywhere!
I'd hope they are all meeting first thing tomorrow, if not already.
There seems a big silence.
Of course you could do this on a European level - but you can't fly anywhere!
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I'm just wondering, do most of European pilots here sincerly hope they can continue safely sit at home (or down route) for a another week or two, and still get paid?
Do reality check: no flights on Monday, most of you on the street by the end of the week latest. Throw a CV to the nearest McDonalds - I've heard they hiring on first came first served basis.
Does anybody know if Wright Bros had scientifically sound data, appropriate testing and insurance coverage for their flight in 1903? Or they were sitting on their arses comfortably, awaiting paycheck and permit to fly?
Do reality check: no flights on Monday, most of you on the street by the end of the week latest. Throw a CV to the nearest McDonalds - I've heard they hiring on first came first served basis.
Does anybody know if Wright Bros had scientifically sound data, appropriate testing and insurance coverage for their flight in 1903? Or they were sitting on their arses comfortably, awaiting paycheck and permit to fly?
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test flight
just out, translation by Goggle translator, aint perfect..
ENAC Press Releases
VOLCANIC CLOUD: ENAC orders ENAV reconnaissance flight through ITALIAN airspace
ENAC (National Civil Aviation Authority) has authorized the ENAV (Italian Company for Flight Assistance) to conduct a reconnaissance flight this morning to check the status of Italian airspace directly affected by the volcanic cloud from Iceland .
The flight is made with a Cessna Citation 2 from Department of Radiomisure Enav, with crew commanded by the same company Flight Operations Manager.
The route of the mission arranged by ENAC ENAV provides the flight has departed from Ciampino airport in the morning today, the continuation of the aircraft on the route Bolsena-Ferrara, with stabilization at various altitudes and an approach to the airport of Venice Tessera, go around, then an approach to Milan Linate airport, from where, also without landing, will return to Ciampino at various altitudes through Italian airspace along the Pisa and Grosseto route.
After this reconnaissance flight, the Cessna Citation 2 Enav be conducted in the maintenance hangar for Ciampino to be carefully inspected, the engines will be excavated and analyzed to verify their status and the presence of wear particles of volcanic cloud even motor oil.
The President of ENAC, Vito Riggio, also asked the Head of Department for Civil Defence, Guido Bertolaso, to be available as soon as possible - through the Italian Institute of Volcanology - special sensors capable of detecting and measuring the presence of volcanic ash high, not detectable by radar. This is to collect as soon as further data and analysis elements can complement those of the bulletin and the European Community level mathematical models provided by Eurocontrol.
Rome, 18/04/2010
ENAC Press Releases
VOLCANIC CLOUD: ENAC orders ENAV reconnaissance flight through ITALIAN airspace
ENAC (National Civil Aviation Authority) has authorized the ENAV (Italian Company for Flight Assistance) to conduct a reconnaissance flight this morning to check the status of Italian airspace directly affected by the volcanic cloud from Iceland .
The flight is made with a Cessna Citation 2 from Department of Radiomisure Enav, with crew commanded by the same company Flight Operations Manager.
The route of the mission arranged by ENAC ENAV provides the flight has departed from Ciampino airport in the morning today, the continuation of the aircraft on the route Bolsena-Ferrara, with stabilization at various altitudes and an approach to the airport of Venice Tessera, go around, then an approach to Milan Linate airport, from where, also without landing, will return to Ciampino at various altitudes through Italian airspace along the Pisa and Grosseto route.
After this reconnaissance flight, the Cessna Citation 2 Enav be conducted in the maintenance hangar for Ciampino to be carefully inspected, the engines will be excavated and analyzed to verify their status and the presence of wear particles of volcanic cloud even motor oil.
The President of ENAC, Vito Riggio, also asked the Head of Department for Civil Defence, Guido Bertolaso, to be available as soon as possible - through the Italian Institute of Volcanology - special sensors capable of detecting and measuring the presence of volcanic ash high, not detectable by radar. This is to collect as soon as further data and analysis elements can complement those of the bulletin and the European Community level mathematical models provided by Eurocontrol.
Rome, 18/04/2010
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apparently currently airborne
KLM7457
Callsign: KLM7457
Flightnr:
Reg: PH-BGI
Hex: 484B90
Model: Boeing 737-7K2 (B737)
Airline: KLM
Lat: 53.4672
Lon: 5.8419
Alt: 19000 feet (5791 m)
Ground speed: 340 knots
(630 km/h / 391 mph)
Track: 264°
Radar: NET2
KLM7457
Callsign: KLM7457
Flightnr:
Reg: PH-BGI
Hex: 484B90
Model: Boeing 737-7K2 (B737)
Airline: KLM
Lat: 53.4672
Lon: 5.8419
Alt: 19000 feet (5791 m)
Ground speed: 340 knots
(630 km/h / 391 mph)
Track: 264°
Radar: NET2
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Number 1 in aviation is SAFETY, let´s wait until some results are clear so we all can get back to our job, I´m the first one interested on a clear and positive solution. But if this volcano is going to be around for a while then I will think on getting my Zeppelin TR soon, it´s the future?
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Dear all, the closure of the air space is a financial hell for the aviation industry. But on the other side I am shocked about the comments of some "professionals" here, who want to fly immediately.
First, the engines are one problem. Damage is highly possible, a complete loss is a much lower risk, but cannot be ruled out.
Second, we have a lot of other dangers, from air data system to give wrong indications up to the damage on the aircraft paint and others. Remember the Potomac Disaster, created by three problems (wrong cockpit indications giving less thrust, a contaminated wing and a pilot having no training and no idea).
The same is here. Too many factors are unknown that we cannot risk to send a full packed aircraft up. And aircraft will be always on the MTOW to get the chaos ended as quick as possible. If KLM makes a test flight with a nearly empty aircraft is one thing, but a full packed 777 on the MTOW going maybe two hours through the cloud stream is a different story.
The major problem is the uncertain, as we have not enough data. And the closure is therefore the only logical consequence, as hard as it is.
First, the engines are one problem. Damage is highly possible, a complete loss is a much lower risk, but cannot be ruled out.
Second, we have a lot of other dangers, from air data system to give wrong indications up to the damage on the aircraft paint and others. Remember the Potomac Disaster, created by three problems (wrong cockpit indications giving less thrust, a contaminated wing and a pilot having no training and no idea).
The same is here. Too many factors are unknown that we cannot risk to send a full packed aircraft up. And aircraft will be always on the MTOW to get the chaos ended as quick as possible. If KLM makes a test flight with a nearly empty aircraft is one thing, but a full packed 777 on the MTOW going maybe two hours through the cloud stream is a different story.
The major problem is the uncertain, as we have not enough data. And the closure is therefore the only logical consequence, as hard as it is.
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Crux of the matter is, whether or not KLM, LH or indead anyone else who want´s to venture out and try out the presence or not of the volacanic ash. Are their findings valid or suficient for the authorities to make judgment and allow air traffic to flow once again into European airspace? I have a feeling that the meteo and related authorities are been put in doubt
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Mark my words. This is gross overkill . The cloud will remain. Flights will resume. Nothing will happen .VAAC have their 15 minutes of fame and return to their final salary pensions.
Millions pissed around 100s millions lost.
Millions pissed around 100s millions lost.
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Sorry to butt in but heres a flightglobal article showing Finnish F-18 engine checks revealing melted ash in the engine. Have KLM boroscoped their engines?
Clicky
Clicky
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German carriers lead backlash over volcanic ash closures
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I think, that if KLM and LH can prove that they can fly safely every day that they were not allowed to by authorities, then they can foward all financial claims to those authorities !!.
Smart move on legal /financial aspects MR Hartman, CEO KLM and LH CEO
Smart move on legal /financial aspects MR Hartman, CEO KLM and LH CEO
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The bigger issue is that the meteorologists have a pretty good picture on where the ash cloud is, they also say which areas have the higher dust densities and which areas have low density of contamination. The issue is that there is little information on how planes react... There were two data points: Going through visible cloud is bad (causes flame out of the engines); flying in the background ash concentration causes normal wear. Only recently the Finish air force provided a third data point: flying through moderate ashes may require extra maintenance to the engine.
I am all in favour of getting more information on actual ash concentrations and the actual wear and contamination it causes to a plane flying through it. We should get to numbers like "flying for 10 hours through concentration x of volcanic ashes requires an engine inspection".
I am all in favour of getting more information on actual ash concentrations and the actual wear and contamination it causes to a plane flying through it. We should get to numbers like "flying for 10 hours through concentration x of volcanic ashes requires an engine inspection".
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How long will YOUR airline survive?
If this lasts, and history of this volcano indicates it will, we will see
the first airlines go under in a few days. In a few months, most
european airlines will be owned by their governments.
So, expect desperate airlines to put enormous pressure on the
authority's to get back in the air.
The airline industry already had a bad year in 2009 so very few
airlines have reserves. Low cost airlines like RYR will be the
ones that can last the longest.
Good luck to you all!
the first airlines go under in a few days. In a few months, most
european airlines will be owned by their governments.
So, expect desperate airlines to put enormous pressure on the
authority's to get back in the air.
The airline industry already had a bad year in 2009 so very few
airlines have reserves. Low cost airlines like RYR will be the
ones that can last the longest.
Good luck to you all!
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Progress of the KL flight can be tracked here (Amsterdam)
Casper - live aircraft tracking
Casper - live aircraft tracking
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I do believe that flying through a dense ash cloud is extremly hazardous and should not be attemted on purpose.
I do believe that flying through the low density ash now over Europe will cause build up inside the engines over time and will require more frequent overhauls and cause more cost to the airlines.
I do not believe that it is unjustifiably risky to fly passengers around while avoiding the high concentration area of ashes. It will only cost more money.
Proof: Test flights conducted by LH and KLM, and the F18 engines of finnish airforce, which are polluted, but did not fail while hitting the initial high density clouds last week.
If the Company calls me tomorrow, I will pack my things and go flying.
Nic
I do believe that flying through the low density ash now over Europe will cause build up inside the engines over time and will require more frequent overhauls and cause more cost to the airlines.
I do not believe that it is unjustifiably risky to fly passengers around while avoiding the high concentration area of ashes. It will only cost more money.
Proof: Test flights conducted by LH and KLM, and the F18 engines of finnish airforce, which are polluted, but did not fail while hitting the initial high density clouds last week.
If the Company calls me tomorrow, I will pack my things and go flying.
Nic
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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One vital question in all this is where will the insurers sit if an airline starts operating again? "Err OK KLM - all risks except volcanic ash covered"
I once was told an interesting story by an aviation insurance broker abou KLM who one year said to their insurers "we've had xxx years accident free with you, we'd like to talk about a lower premium". Insurers apparently said, "It will be twice this year's, we work on statistics and you are overdue for a big one".
The following year? You've guessed it.
I once was told an interesting story by an aviation insurance broker abou KLM who one year said to their insurers "we've had xxx years accident free with you, we'd like to talk about a lower premium". Insurers apparently said, "It will be twice this year's, we work on statistics and you are overdue for a big one".
The following year? You've guessed it.
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Quote: Pilotmike
One "aeronautical engineer" is wheeled out after a flight in a Dornier, that BTW DID NOT CRASH and says that he wouldnt want to put airliners up there. Sadly he has lost all credibility as it was HIS PERSONAL OPINION released immediately after he returned........ there had not been any time to examine the data recovered. Maybe he smelt sulphur and that clouded his judgement but firing off like that was nothing more than him getting his 15 minutes of fame.
he is a scientist working on air pollution so has some credibility.
Global Warrier: You might wish to be aware that 'he' is Genghis the Engineer, a PPRuNe moderator, so he will probably delete your post if he thinks it is YOU who is 'firing off' with 'clouded judgement', and that you have 'lost all credibility' in an attempt for your '15 minutes of fame'.
As for the rest of the ********* you trot out as fact - just were do we start? In your own words,
Quote:
everyone needs to learn....... GOOD get back to [your hole?] and do the job that you are actually qualified to comment on
One "aeronautical engineer" is wheeled out after a flight in a Dornier, that BTW DID NOT CRASH and says that he wouldnt want to put airliners up there. Sadly he has lost all credibility as it was HIS PERSONAL OPINION released immediately after he returned........ there had not been any time to examine the data recovered. Maybe he smelt sulphur and that clouded his judgement but firing off like that was nothing more than him getting his 15 minutes of fame.
he is a scientist working on air pollution so has some credibility.
Global Warrier: You might wish to be aware that 'he' is Genghis the Engineer, a PPRuNe moderator, so he will probably delete your post if he thinks it is YOU who is 'firing off' with 'clouded judgement', and that you have 'lost all credibility' in an attempt for your '15 minutes of fame'.
As for the rest of the ********* you trot out as fact - just were do we start? In your own words,
Quote:
everyone needs to learn....... GOOD get back to [your hole?] and do the job that you are actually qualified to comment on
Just because he's a moderator..... doesnt make him right and if HE feels any offence, i apologise to him
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It seems to me that whilst all pronouncements from NATS and government are in terms calculated to not cause panic with an expectation of an early resolution the fact is that no one has a clue how long this will go on for. It seems to me as likely that the matter will resolve in days as it will in weeks..based on the various articles in todays press from Vulcanologists.
An already weakened industry is being crucified and reserves depleted.So the question I have is how long will this go on before drastic action has to be taken to preserve the airlines?......and who will be the first casualties? No business can survive without revenue.
Our society is so dependant on this industry as a whole that whilst the green lobby might welcome an armageddon scenario that sees the demise of the carriers as we know them today the fact is that it is unthinkable that government should not take steps to preserve it...just in the same way they did to preserve the banks...
If I was Willie Walsh I would be having some serious "what if" conversations with government as BA must surely be amongst the least well placed if this continues. Ironically based on disclosed cash reserves our favourite Irish carrier is probably in a better position than any.....
These are indeed worrying times.
An already weakened industry is being crucified and reserves depleted.So the question I have is how long will this go on before drastic action has to be taken to preserve the airlines?......and who will be the first casualties? No business can survive without revenue.
Our society is so dependant on this industry as a whole that whilst the green lobby might welcome an armageddon scenario that sees the demise of the carriers as we know them today the fact is that it is unthinkable that government should not take steps to preserve it...just in the same way they did to preserve the banks...
If I was Willie Walsh I would be having some serious "what if" conversations with government as BA must surely be amongst the least well placed if this continues. Ironically based on disclosed cash reserves our favourite Irish carrier is probably in a better position than any.....
These are indeed worrying times.