Polish Government Tu154M crash
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Radio Handler
The Captain of the Flight; Protasiuk apparently had 2937h on type (post #564) and was fluent in the Russian Language (post #851)
However the ATC Controller Pavel Plusnin stated that a language barrier existed (post #567)
Post #840 - The Russians have a system whereby if the Captain is flying, then no-one monitors him. The F/O handles the radios, the navigator navigates, but for some reason it appears even he failed to notice the outer marker was further way, and that they were subsequently too low.
Was F/O Grzywma handling the radio comms? was he fluent in the Russian language?
The navigator only had 59 hrs on type.
This thread has noted all the above facts, but who actually handled the Comms?
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Drop the language barrier pls. First of all, we don't know if the interview with the "controller" is real. Second, even if it is, most probably he's referring to crews of other a/c that arrived later with Polish officials and relatives of the President. An alleged ATC to crew recording that circulated on the net was not from PLF101, but IGA703, SAAB 340 with Mr. Kaczynski's twin brother and his party's officials. Crew had problems with Russian, mixing some English words, but landed safely. There's no chance that Tupolev crew had problems with Russian - flying there often, having materials in Russian, and being over 30, they must have had Russian in school. And basic words like numerals are so similar that it's impossible not to understand them.
The supposed "Russian procedure" of not monitoring is implausible. Bad CRM - probable, but no monitoring at all - not really.
The supposed "Russian procedure" of not monitoring is implausible. Bad CRM - probable, but no monitoring at all - not really.
Wildfire
Though (as criss points out above) language itself is most likely not an issue, your point is still a good one (re, who may have been doing what on the flight deck) and I don't think we know those answsers yet. If the CVR is released, or portions thereof, we will know. Or if MAK includes that info in a briefing or preliminary report.
Human factors -- specifically flight crew interaction and communications (i.e. CRM) -- are, of course, common contributors to CFIT occurrences. As many readers of this thread are aware, the roles, duties, and therefore the CRM issues here, can be quite different than what most "Western" crews are used to.
Hopefully we shall see; and then learn from this.
grizz
Though (as criss points out above) language itself is most likely not an issue, your point is still a good one (re, who may have been doing what on the flight deck) and I don't think we know those answsers yet. If the CVR is released, or portions thereof, we will know. Or if MAK includes that info in a briefing or preliminary report.
Human factors -- specifically flight crew interaction and communications (i.e. CRM) -- are, of course, common contributors to CFIT occurrences. As many readers of this thread are aware, the roles, duties, and therefore the CRM issues here, can be quite different than what most "Western" crews are used to.
Hopefully we shall see; and then learn from this.
grizz
Last edited by grizzled; 26th Apr 2010 at 16:57. Reason: to clarify my post, re criss's post above
On the last flight before crash they were landing the opposite direction.
NDB there is on 4km.
NDB there is on 4km.
Second thing, there wasn't any opposite direction approach. Impossible.
Arrakis
After the unit was disbanded, the equipment for the opposite approach was dismantled. No approach from opposite side.
Quoting such press B.S. it's assuming they went to Smolensk without any airbase/approach documents
and if you are quoting something, at least try to do it correctly, without changing the meaning of the article.
Arrakis
Quoting such press B.S. it's assuming they went to Smolensk without any airbase/approach documents
and if you are quoting something, at least try to do it correctly, without changing the meaning of the article.
Arrakis
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All this nonsense about reciprocal approaches and the like is a waste of time. As a professional pilot I am expected to be able to fly somewhere for the first time and not crash. I do not need to have been before or to have approached on the other runway. It does not matter how far the NDB is from the runway.
This crew either had a technical problem or they made a dirty dart, either blind or with SOMETHING in sight which was not the runway, and encountered rising ground which they could not outclimb.
Thank heavens the 'KGB assassination' posts appear to have died down.
This crew either had a technical problem or they made a dirty dart, either blind or with SOMETHING in sight which was not the runway, and encountered rising ground which they could not outclimb.
Thank heavens the 'KGB assassination' posts appear to have died down.
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It must be something new - compared to what it was before. I mean, Polish delegations did come before, and several times. And OK, nobody was even once interested.
aerodrome - same old Beakons prehistorical
access side to the runway airport - as min it was the same on April 7th, just days before
ground control - same
Capt. Protasiuk - same
Even, President Kachinsky - same, he was coming by same very plane with same very Protasiuk, to same very aerodrome - and - alright, somehow. No harm at all.
New components:
1. fog
2. likely - navigator
3. TU-154M - same, and did flew on the 7th April.
But still did have a restoration 4 months previously - and - new foreign navigation equipment was installed, on which they could over-rely, being happy they have it.
3.
aerodrome - same old Beakons prehistorical
access side to the runway airport - as min it was the same on April 7th, just days before
ground control - same
Capt. Protasiuk - same
Even, President Kachinsky - same, he was coming by same very plane with same very Protasiuk, to same very aerodrome - and - alright, somehow. No harm at all.
New components:
1. fog
2. likely - navigator
3. TU-154M - same, and did flew on the 7th April.
But still did have a restoration 4 months previously - and - new foreign navigation equipment was installed, on which they could over-rely, being happy they have it.
3.
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With all due respect, if the professionals are deeming each others analysis as "nonsense", then we newbies can add little to the conversation. And if anyone expects transparency in an investigation taken over by a former KGB general, it will be a very long wait indeed.
Originally Posted by BMP
With all due respect, if the professionals are deeming each others analysis as "nonsense", then we newbies can add little to the conversation.
Analysis? So far, the known facts are so limited as to make analysis basic at best. "Educated guesses" (and often, uneducated guesses) are the best that posters can come up with at the moment.
It is not expected that newbies with little aviation knowledge can add anything meaningful to the conversation. In fact, it would be far preferable if this didn't happen.
Thanks.
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Well that's unequivocal "Let me wish you a very good day", and I, for one, am packing. Will glance in from time to time, to see how professionals sort the riddle without Smolensk blog un-professional in-put.
After all, who needs aerodrome charts and Amelin's photos and measurements, time of crash and other annoying data standing in the way of professional vision. All know how Russian military aerodromes are equipped and what's TU154M of Poland Air Force configuration is after the fix.
If foreign pilots are happy to rely on the media data - who am I to have an idea. Besides, it is reasonable to wait for the results of Russian Investigation Committee results - they analyse the crash, after all, and will come up with formal statement. Incl. recommendations for the industry. Then the profi-s can make their conclusions.
If any newbies are interested to continue, with facts in hands - welcome to Smolesnk blog at ? ????????? ???? ??????? • ?????????? ?????
There English and Polish and Russian are acceptable tongues; MIG pilots don't snob to give explanations to industry outsiders, Northern aerodrome staff are quite helpful, and, how to say, I really think it'll be better for all.
Sincerely,
Alice
After all, who needs aerodrome charts and Amelin's photos and measurements, time of crash and other annoying data standing in the way of professional vision. All know how Russian military aerodromes are equipped and what's TU154M of Poland Air Force configuration is after the fix.
If foreign pilots are happy to rely on the media data - who am I to have an idea. Besides, it is reasonable to wait for the results of Russian Investigation Committee results - they analyse the crash, after all, and will come up with formal statement. Incl. recommendations for the industry. Then the profi-s can make their conclusions.
If any newbies are interested to continue, with facts in hands - welcome to Smolesnk blog at ? ????????? ???? ??????? • ?????????? ?????
There English and Polish and Russian are acceptable tongues; MIG pilots don't snob to give explanations to industry outsiders, Northern aerodrome staff are quite helpful, and, how to say, I really think it'll be better for all.
Sincerely,
Alice
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I'm sorry but some of this is absurd.
The simple reality is that flying a complex aircraft is simple, right up until it's not. Every thread specific to controlled flight into terrain seems to come back to fundamental errors in judgement. There is no conspiracy, no international espionage or any dime store novel stuff.
The folks who man the pointy end of the aluminum tube accept the stark reality that any momentary lapse in judgement might cost the lives of those entrusted to their care. Accordingly a tremendous interest exists in exploring the possibilities, in some instances like 447 all that exists for now is that curiosity and speculation and the impossible to answer "what happened?" and "could I recognize and prevent the tragedy if it was me?".
Here is seems a very simple reality that all of the "rules" exist for a reason and a harsh reminder that fate is still the hunter....
The simple reality is that flying a complex aircraft is simple, right up until it's not. Every thread specific to controlled flight into terrain seems to come back to fundamental errors in judgement. There is no conspiracy, no international espionage or any dime store novel stuff.
The folks who man the pointy end of the aluminum tube accept the stark reality that any momentary lapse in judgement might cost the lives of those entrusted to their care. Accordingly a tremendous interest exists in exploring the possibilities, in some instances like 447 all that exists for now is that curiosity and speculation and the impossible to answer "what happened?" and "could I recognize and prevent the tragedy if it was me?".
Here is seems a very simple reality that all of the "rules" exist for a reason and a harsh reminder that fate is still the hunter....
Alice025, that wasn't specifically aimed at any particular poster.
Just to anyone that may have a cap that fits...
If you choose to place yourself in that category, so be it.
There have been a few posters clearly ignorant of aviation procedures that have posted all sorts of outlandish theories, and asked some questions that would be better asked in the spotters corner.
Some have taken information (like a reported visibility, for example) then posted a theory so out of context that it's clear they have zero understanding. Someone has to clean up after them, when they get too outlandish.
At this point, without hard data, such speculation is pointless. It seems the professionals know this. Look at the posts.
Just to anyone that may have a cap that fits...
If you choose to place yourself in that category, so be it.
There have been a few posters clearly ignorant of aviation procedures that have posted all sorts of outlandish theories, and asked some questions that would be better asked in the spotters corner.
Some have taken information (like a reported visibility, for example) then posted a theory so out of context that it's clear they have zero understanding. Someone has to clean up after them, when they get too outlandish.
At this point, without hard data, such speculation is pointless. It seems the professionals know this. Look at the posts.
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Alice,
don't be offended by some "stiff upper lip" snobs here.
As I stated before, we are extremely grateful for you effords in translating
and posting all the valuable information on this forum.
Please, do not give up and continue providing us with important and valid
information.
Bolshoye spasiba.
Dziękujemy!
don't be offended by some "stiff upper lip" snobs here.
As I stated before, we are extremely grateful for you effords in translating
and posting all the valuable information on this forum.
Please, do not give up and continue providing us with important and valid
information.
Bolshoye spasiba.
Dziękujemy!
Alice025
It was the conspiracy zombies fluttering about this thread that caused most readers to lose patience -- not you.
Your contributions have been of significant value to understanding what the people closer to the situation (in both Poland and Russia) are thinking and saying. And with specific reference to your translations from the Smolensk forum, and other sources, your input has been invaluable.
Please don't give up.
grizz
It was the conspiracy zombies fluttering about this thread that caused most readers to lose patience -- not you.
Your contributions have been of significant value to understanding what the people closer to the situation (in both Poland and Russia) are thinking and saying. And with specific reference to your translations from the Smolensk forum, and other sources, your input has been invaluable.
Please don't give up.
grizz
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Recent press report quote the time of accident at 10:41 LT.
This is the time, when, allegedly the MARS BM (CVR) stopped registering.
Co odkryj? g?osy z MARS-a?
This is the time, when, allegedly the MARS BM (CVR) stopped registering.
Co odkryj? g?osy z MARS-a?
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Originally Posted by grizzled
It was the conspiracy zombies fluttering about this thread that caused most readers to lose patience -- not you.
If these posters are to be allowed to continue to post these things, can we at least have ONE of them tell us CLEARLY what the 'theory' actually is behind these 'theories'?
I think most of us who have flown professionally actually have a pretty good idea what happened here, and it does not involve little green (or black) men from Mars with revolvers.
As with many threads here, it is becoming impossible to extract useful information from all the gossip.
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BOAC,
unfortunately, as long as we have no official information we are condemned to base on
rumours (as the name of the forum and this particular section is.)
Unfortunately the a.m. rumours are to be found on blogs, in newspapers etc.
It is not our fault that the administrators and moderators are less active
on this thread, and acting slower, that on the others.
It is also not our fault, that this particular accident is creating unusual
public interest and attracts all kind of jerks.
So, we humbly take your point, but will keep posting whatever rumour
we will find in the web and elsewhere, that is relevant to this case.
unfortunately, as long as we have no official information we are condemned to base on
rumours (as the name of the forum and this particular section is.)
Unfortunately the a.m. rumours are to be found on blogs, in newspapers etc.
It is not our fault that the administrators and moderators are less active
on this thread, and acting slower, that on the others.
It is also not our fault, that this particular accident is creating unusual
public interest and attracts all kind of jerks.
So, we humbly take your point, but will keep posting whatever rumour
we will find in the web and elsewhere, that is relevant to this case.
Last edited by Ptkay; 27th Apr 2010 at 09:53.
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Ptkay,
I completely agree with you. The extraordinary situation around this crash results mainly from the people and countries involved. And it is of utmost importance to people in Poland and Russia as well.
I registered to this forum some time ago only to have the ability to search for certain information I needed, without the slightest intention to post here as I do not deem myself an aviation professional. Nevertheless the extraordinary situation made me write a few lines here. And I think this applies to a certain number of new members here, who really try to post valuable information here, as Alice does.
The dynamics of the situation, mainly here in Poland, where media try to find daily another "expert" to reveal the "real cause" of the accident. And because the information IMO is badly managed by Polish authorities, it feeds also all kinds of more or less crazy speculations. This increases the temperature of the public discussion on this topic in Poland to a point where it becomes unbearable any more.
So I hope we can get soon some hard data that can be discussed by professionals on this forum, for the benefit of everyone.
I completely agree with you. The extraordinary situation around this crash results mainly from the people and countries involved. And it is of utmost importance to people in Poland and Russia as well.
I registered to this forum some time ago only to have the ability to search for certain information I needed, without the slightest intention to post here as I do not deem myself an aviation professional. Nevertheless the extraordinary situation made me write a few lines here. And I think this applies to a certain number of new members here, who really try to post valuable information here, as Alice does.
The dynamics of the situation, mainly here in Poland, where media try to find daily another "expert" to reveal the "real cause" of the accident. And because the information IMO is badly managed by Polish authorities, it feeds also all kinds of more or less crazy speculations. This increases the temperature of the public discussion on this topic in Poland to a point where it becomes unbearable any more.
So I hope we can get soon some hard data that can be discussed by professionals on this forum, for the benefit of everyone.