JFK ATC in the news...

[etrang]

The press as an entity are to blame here - what do they know about aviation?

The press is to blame? Rediculous. The controller is responsible for his actions, his supervisors are responsible for theirs and their response to this. The regulating authority is responsible for their response.

To blame the press is idiotic, you might as well blame the inventor of whatever recording device was used to record the sounds, or blame Al Gore for inventing the internet and allowing this message board to exist and publicise the story.

[rottenray]

infrequentflyer789 writes:

It is precisely like the surgeon handing the kid the scalpel and saying "cut here, this long this deep". The surgeon is making the decision and supervising and standing ready to attempt to patch things up when the kid nicks a major artery.

Oh, for pete's sake!

This same tired and inaccurate analogy has been fluttered around all the forums.

It is NOT the same thing.

This is comparing a physical action which would cause an instant physical reaction to a communication between humans which could be corrected before being acted upon.

Apples to sardines.

Nicking an artery would IMMEDIATELY let blood out, and would require a lot of physical work to fix.

You can't tell an artery "disregard, here is the correct incision."

The boy wasn't issuing heading changes / altitude changes.

Planes don't immediately leap into the air upon being given clearance for takeoff. A lot of posts try to make it seem like an aircraft cleared would reach V1 before ATC had the next opportunity to communicate with it. Possible, I suppose, but unlikely.

Dad was obviously in control.

Had the boy started to say the wrong thing or say it at the wrong time, he would have been IMMEDIATELY over-ridden.

Did dad make a bad guess re: the sh*t storm it would create? No doubt. This is a purely "made for FOX" event with lots of potential for all the dire words and all the calls for heads to roll.

Could all the "holes in the cheese" have lined up just-so to create an incident? Perhaps. If either of the guy's kids had undiagnosed Tourette's Syndrome, who knows what could have happened!

But I think it's prolly better having a doting father / son (or doting father / daughter) combo doing this than having a controller who is doing it merely to impress a girlfriend into giving him a knobjob later...

At least the dad / kid duo won't be as fundamentally distracted by "non-aviation" considerations.


Also, I've read more than a few posts regarding "pirate" transmissions possible using hand-held VHF.

The bulk of these posts seem to excoriate the pilots in New York for not rejecting the kid's tx out-of-hand for simply being a different voice, hence, possibly a "pirate" transmission.

I'm fairly familiar with comm in general. In most cases, it's pretty easy to tell a different voice in the same location from a different voice in a different location, although I don't think this 100% universal or error-proof. Certainly, it depends upon the background noise in all three locations.

But I would think that the sonic quality of the mics and transmitters and the acoustic environment in a control tower would be quite different from those of a hand-held unit outside or in a car.

A question I'd like to ask "the drivers" is this: How hard would it be for you to tell the difference between the real controller you've been talking to and a spoof?

Note, it's merely curiosity, and perhaps it will spark some interesting debate.


I'd also like to thank a few posters for their ribald sarcasm - fire the dad, burn the house, pilots will fly planes into the ground if ATC tells them to, et cetera. I've gotten a few laughs from y'all, keep up the good work!

[wozzo]

There were far more serious incidents

I read that sometimes John F. Kennedy let his kids sit at the desk in the Oval Office. Can you imagine? A kid controlled ALL THOSE NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

[Pugilistic Animus]

Finally I( could get into this!!!!

computer troubles!

listen the faa does nothing about pilots talking on spacebook about honoring the muppet who purposely crashed into irs building ---this is the downside of reagan,...and the world has reached a new level of mindless muppetry

[Pugilistic Animus]

and...pilots are smarter than docs,...because most docs, ...forget most of what they learn,.....pilots keep almost 100% of their training at the top of the head,....
......then learn 1% more each day and we never forget to learn,...same goes for controllers............ let the real experts have some fun transporting for peanuts loudmouth ground people
Lester

[rottenray]

from Mouse:

WIll all those saying it was fine please also answer the question where do you draw the line and how?

I wrote in another post that

I think it's prolly better having a doting father / son (or doting father / daughter) combo doing this than having a controller who is doing it merely to impress a girlfriend into giving him a knobjob later...

It's not the first time a "guest speaker" has talked to a pilot via tower equipment, and most likely won't be the last.

Also, I'm not saying it's fine. Had I been a passenger on one of the flights, I would have had to take a "Zen Moment" after seeing it on the news.

But having kept up with it, and having read approx 50 news articles and 500 posts here and there, I find it's not the end of the world, not even the beginning of it.

A few people have mentioned the constructive side of this, either here or on the "blue website with all the great photos."

What if it inspires one of the kids to become a controller, and become an excellent one who can be credited with saving lives? Isn't the tiny increase in risk NOW worth that in the future?

Also, what if all the coverage and rabid tongue-wagging surrounding this event un-inspires a controller who is not as adept at his job from doing the very thing I mentioned above? Could that potentially save lives?


I realize this is a hot issue, and never will the outlier sides agree. Some feel it's fine, some feel a head or two should roll.

But I think more can be learned if we all keep it in perspective.

It could have been a disaster if all the players involved were complete idiots.

Apparently, the guy's kids are well spoken and articulate clearly, and apparently he has a wonderful relationship with them.

Apparently, he chose his times well and conducted things well enough so there were no incidents, no complaints, and no noise until FOX picked it up.

Someone suggested he should have done exactly what he did - but at a G/A airport somewhere on a Sunday, and I agree with this.


But to answer your "draw the line" question...

Somewhere "south" of this brou-ha-ha, I would say.

It was a less-than-smart thing to do, but in keeping up with this topic I've read posts from controllers who had co-workers who read newspapers/magazines while maintaining space, posts from pilots who claimed to have recognized audio from TV programs and porn movies in the background while talking to ATC.

That, I think, is where you need to go drawing your line.

At least dad and kids were fully concentrating on the task.

Certainly not in keeping with best policies or regulations (?) but also certainly not the worst-ever transgression.

There are far more important things to worry about.



In reply to

The press as an entity are to blame here - what do they know about aviation?

etrang writes:
The press is to blame? Rediculous. The controller is responsible for his actions, his supervisors are responsible for theirs and their response to this. The regulating authority is responsible for their response.

Although it seems impossible, both are right.

Almost nobody would have known about the situation if it hadn't made FOX in New York. I don't think the aviation buffs who log in to liveATC had much of an issue with it either.

And, the controller is indeed responsible - he hasn't denied it. His supers haven't either, and have taken the appropriate steps. The FAA is taking the appropriate steps as well.


Aviation is filled with near-misses, and those represent the best learning tools.

One thing I respect is the disciplined approach to find the best balance between flying and dying.

If you do the former, you might also experience the latter; sheer statistics say it's so.

I've heard traffic control described as an art. I've heard it described as a discipline. I tend to think it's both.

And it's not the easiest career to attract great whopping numbers of the best and brightest to - it is perceived as being a very stressful avocation.


Maybe we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Given all the emotion this event has stirred up, perhaps it would be good to look at it as a learning event, something to model recruitment from.

Don't go copying and pasting and quoting and shooting down just yet.

This guy obviously loves his job. He obviously loves his kids. If he didn't, he wouldn't have mixed the two together, be-damned the outcome.

Could the situation be turned into a "positive" thing to appeal to parents just like him, to possibly entice getting more "2nd generation" controllers into the mix?

Just a thought...

[Pugilistic Animus]

and this is just fine http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...l#post5497374:

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[rottenray]

pug writes:

peanuts loudmouth ground people

Ouch! If you won't kiss me first, at least buy me a drink!

As far as pilots vs. doctors, well, I have naturally good health.

I fly more often than I get sick.

Therefore, my fat butt has been entrusted to more pilots than doctors.

So far, so good.

But speaking from a purely statistical perspective, I'm more apt to be let down by a pilot than a doctor.

I use pilots more frequently, and I cannot go to the same one for 25 years.

Ain't that a hoot?!

and pug also writes:

and this is just fine http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...l#post5497374:

I read the whole thread some time back.

The whole problem is that it is hard for folks who have never worked on a large mil or civ airframe (C-5, C-141, which I worked on, and the C-17 which always gives me a morning crescent, and certainly all the commercial birds) to determine exactly WHAT makes an airframe dangerous to operate.

Folks including a lot of the FAA folks. Almost of FAA know their stuff and love aviation, but there are just enough paper-pushers in the loop to confugulate things.

That's because every condition has implications which affect the entire flight. In commercial transit, things get even more complex and folks who don't love and understand aviation may miss true problems as well as being triggered by insignificant ones.

Perfect World: Everything is working, everyone in MX likes to see his reflection from the paint, every rivet is inspected before each flight, and there are puppy dogs holding flowers as runway signage.
Real World: Most stuff breaks after a certain amount of time, some stuff isn't absolutely necessary, we have missions/schedules to attain, and a few (not most) maintenance folks don't like to be bothered.

Of the 65k, there are prolly only a handful of real killer issues.

But the lack of regard for procedures and doc is troubling indeed - aviation is certainly mostly intuitive, but it is also a hard taskmaster when it comes to documenting everything. So that future issues can be prevented.


Commercial air transit- to me - represents one of the highest points of human endeavor.

The physical engineering is incredible - durable enough to fly for 20 - 40 years, yet light enough to operate economically. (Natch there are exclusions, but we'll leave them alone for now.)

The application engineering is incredible as well. Develop routes, and market/operate them safely and profitably. (Again, exclusions, yadda-yadda...)


I yuttered something about "perfect world" a few lines back.

Let me add that in a perfect world, everyone connected with air travel would be deeply in love with it. I'm not in the biz, but I still have a great love for the aircraft and the folks who make them possible.

I'm not cut to be a commercial pilot - frankly, I lack the sheer discipline it takes. I could not do what y'all do day in and day out. I started but never followed-through on a PPL, because I became too busy with family. Once I fully retire, if I'm able to get the 100 acres I'm lusting after, I might try an ultralight. (I'm thinking of a Mitchell wing. Looks damn demanding to learn, with lots of performance lurking behind.)

I could not survive the stress of being ATC. It's a job I think I could do for a few weeks, but would eventually stop showing up for due to lack of sleep.

So all of you have my deepest respect - truly.


But don't vote the dad and kids off the island, m'kay?

[sequ]

It will be sad to hear the voice of that controller go. The JFK controllers have a reputation for sure, but they have amazing and extensive experience.

He will be missed, for such a stupid thing blown out of proportion.

Very sad indeed.

SEQU

[Pugilistic Animus]

Sorry, my excitement got to me pilots and controllers keep the muppety ground people safe,...and further the FAA has basically started a WAR between pilots and controllers,...decreasing safety for all,........ lovely


Great commentary,...RottenRay

PA






































be careful to certain folks posting nonsense here,..... my anthem to ground people YouTube - CHER - JUST LIKE JESSE JAMES
Lester

[skyeuropecapt]

Who was never given instructions(headings,speed) by a controller in Europe after some background voices,was given different instructions by another voice?YES training personnel whose decision wasnt the best at the moment.
Would that require a safety discussion?I don't think so.

So for a child to REPEAT instructions given by his father I doubt the controler should be let go for that but given a blame yes.

What I am intrigued about is how easily the pilots accepted and executed such instructions without a sign of doubt.
It has happened that children(england) used some devices to listen and transmit over atc frequencies..So if i ever hear a child giving me instructions in the air and especially on the ground i would enquire into the message given to me..contacting the ATC on 121.5 as a start...

If the FAA blames the ATC, well the pilots too should get one

[SDFlyer]

Stepwilk: "It's been answered before on this thread, but for those not reading much of it, the dividing line is between controlling and simply speaking a line that his father fed him. Did the kid check intersecting taxiways, estimate the time-to-touchdown of the aircraft on half-mile final, ensure clearance from the previous departure and then tell JetBlue to go? No. He spoke the words his daddy told him to speak, and he may not even have known what they meant."
---------------
And how about the distraction of having little johnny in the tower, talking on the mike and doing this, that and the other thing? Not to mention little jane.

The cheesy holes were starting to line up nicely ......

Then again, maybe controllers are being paid waaaay too much, if so little concentration is required to get the job done.

[rottenray]

skyeuropecapt writes:

What I am intrigued about is how easily the pilots accepted and executed such instructions without a sign of doubt.
It has happened that children(england) used some devices to listen and transmit over atc frequencies..So if i ever hear a child giving me instructions in the air and especially on the ground i would enquire into the message given to me..contacting the ATC on 121.5 as a start...

Thanks.

This explains a lot of the outrage over this event.

In the US, it's easy to purchase a VHF transceiver which includes air bands. But our much-hated FCC (Federal Communications Commission) is rather good at tracking down unauthorized spectrum use. We also have a large amateur radio community which also help serve as watchdogs.

Without doubt, this kind of "spoofing" has happened here but I don't think it's been a big problem.


My question is, wouldn't this be sorted out rather quickly?


Using a hand-held, one would have to be fairly close to the tower in order to hear and interfere with ATC direction. A dozen miles at most, or else curvature of the earth cuts in. VHF. Line of sight.

Being able to hear the tower would also mean the tower would certainly be able to hear them - better, more sensitive equipment than a hand-held costing $300.

Even in a fluke instance where geography shielded the spoofer's tx from the tower, wouldn't the read-backs give things away?


?

[Pugilistic Animus]

and once a real controller 'cleared me' to taxi in front of a landing gulfstream

but I didn't take the bait

[The_Steed]

SLF perspective here...

After listening to the tape, it was actually easier to understand what the kid was saying as opposed to the real ATCO whowasrattlingofftheclearanceinonebreath...

I guess it was lucky that Air China wasn't on the go though...

YouTube - ATC@JFK - Air China 981 (by aldo benitez)

[RobShan]

My view as a passenger - you know, the one of the people who sit up back and pay for the fuel and stuff - is that it wasn't a particularly concerning incident. I feel the that the controller had lapse of judgement but didn't endanger operations. The fact he did it shows a sense of family that is hopefully keeping him on the safe side of stress problems.

The JFK audio was less concerning than listening to the ATC/pilot comms at our local airport. Listening when a B737 after being offered landing runway on RWY 30 as RWY 23 had a significant cross-wind; the pilot (the only one to land on 23 in about a fifteen minute period) replied "We'll take our chances on 23". I'll tske the JFK scenario over that reply.

[beamer]

Sorry guys but its gash and unacceptable. However, I would accept that the controller made a mistake and I would not hang him for it - a kick up the a**e and a clear message to all US controllers that it is not to happen again.

2 further thoughts - what would be the reaction if I allowed a young child onto the flight deck and allow he/she to transmit to US ATC as I approached New York airspace - I'll bet an F16 would be on my wing in a couple of minutes !

Secondly, it is quite true to say that the kiddie in question was a lot clearer on the radio than the average US controller !!!

[Global Warrior]

The media aren't to blame for this incident but they are to blame for the publicity surrounding it.

IMHO He did nothing wrong, bit of fun, let it be. Its definitely not worth him losing his job over. What actually started out as a bit of fun for one family, has probably now, because of the media storm, ruined that family. The attention this has now drawn will probably require that someone has to get fired and the media, to give them a follow up story, will be hoping that does happen and then somehow will champion themselves as purveyors of increased aviation safety.

Some posters have criticised the pilots for accepting the clearance........... but then, to be critical, you have to make the assumption that the pilots didn't know that it was the ATCO's kid talking and so far the evidence suggests that the pilots knew exactly what was going on.

I would suggest that FOX news go to some of the places on the planet where safety is compromised daily by inept controllers that are actually licenced by their countries regulating authority, so in essence, have permission to be inept. Thats far more dangerous than a controllers kid, saying exactly what he is being told to say by Dad, a qualified ATCO at JFK.

I have heard on a daily basis at LHR controllers instructing one aircraft to follow the minibus ahead!!! Would that be the small people carrying automobile that has the cleaning crew on board? Of course it bloody isnt but it doesnt detract from the professionalism of the controller one iota.

What about the guy that does the ATIS? If the information happens to be information Echo, he says "Echo, Echo Echo Echo Echo" I think its amusing and again, i wouldnt begin to questions his/her professionalism just because they were not sticking directly to the letter of the law and just saying information Echo.

Ive heard stories about a controller passing a can of beans to his colleague rather than the ATC Strip, because it added some light relief. Its fun. Just like taking your kids to work because they probably have a real interest in the cool job that Dad has.

Its the publicity surrounding this that is out of proportion. Not the event itself, but sadly, the punishment will probably be totally out of proportion because if he has his ticket pulled, he will have to find a new career, not just a new job.

Fly Safe

GW

[anengineer]

There seems to be two different arguments going on here; 1) Whether the guy should be fired or just given a roasting and 2) Whether the guy did anything wrong at all.

I don't think he should be fired, I do think he needs to be given a roasting and that used as a warning to anyone else contemplating such a poor sense of judgement.

As for argument 2) - maybe I've misunderstood some of the replies here, but is anyone actually saying that they feel the guy did nothing wrong, and should not even be disciplined for it ?

[visibility3miles]

He is getting a roasting and I think he'll never do it again.

I do not think he should be fired, but that's not my call.

Yes, he was wrong to let a person not training to be a controller broadcast instructions to departing aircraft.

Give them a break. I'll bet the kid knows far more about what dad does for a living than most of the media. And relieving stress IS A GOOD THING.

I'll repeat my previous comment. Not one pilot seemed confused by the instructions.

Then again, in New York, they let all kinds of people ring the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange, where billions of dollars and peoples' livelihoods are at stake. Perhaps the media should jump on that ill advised behavior too. Oh wait, they do already, whenever a new IPO trades with executives competent enough to ring a bell, it's featured on CNBC.

Never mind.