JFK ATC in the news...
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Single point of cause ---Lawyers.
Air traffic control facilities are secure domains, and the concerned few individuals breached same.
Question:
Did the respective ATC guys have the approval of the facility chief?
IF not...they are in hot water, and likely to lose their job.
What a waste.
In other words...a dumb move on their part.
In addition, TRACON and FAA tower tours have now been suspended...I wonder...how many kids will now be denied the privilege of watching how air traffic control is done?
One bad apple...spoiles it for everyone else.
A shame.
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not as bad as "kid in the cockpit"
in 1994, a dad let his kids fly the plane. his 15 year old son took control after his sister and the plane crashed killing 75. this isn't nearly as bad.
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What particularly interests me about this whole incident--which, incidentally, has overstayed its leave and now, into double-digit pages needs to be dropped--is that if nothing else, it illustrates the innate overconfidence, if you can call it that, and arrogance of the skilled air-traffic controller.
Now believe me, I don't mean that in a negative way. Controllers are famously confident and assertive--call it arrogant, in a way--just as Marines are aggressive and in your face, and I wouldn't want it any other way. My 45 years of interrelationship with controllers here in the U. S. as a "commercial" but non-working pilot in everything from Stearmans to Citations has been, with very few exceptions, outstanding.
But it amuses me that lots of people say, "What was he thinking? How could he have thought he'd get away with that? Didn't he understand what the Internet would do?"
The answer, I think, is that he's a controller. "Controllers Tell Pilots Where To Go," as the once-popular bumper sticker used to have it. It never occurred to this guy, in a sense, that he couldn't do what he damned well decided, after briefly thinking about it, that he wanted to do.
And good for him. It's a trait fast disappearing.
Now believe me, I don't mean that in a negative way. Controllers are famously confident and assertive--call it arrogant, in a way--just as Marines are aggressive and in your face, and I wouldn't want it any other way. My 45 years of interrelationship with controllers here in the U. S. as a "commercial" but non-working pilot in everything from Stearmans to Citations has been, with very few exceptions, outstanding.
But it amuses me that lots of people say, "What was he thinking? How could he have thought he'd get away with that? Didn't he understand what the Internet would do?"
The answer, I think, is that he's a controller. "Controllers Tell Pilots Where To Go," as the once-popular bumper sticker used to have it. It never occurred to this guy, in a sense, that he couldn't do what he damned well decided, after briefly thinking about it, that he wanted to do.
And good for him. It's a trait fast disappearing.
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The problem here is that pilots and air traffic controllers work to a set of rules and standards. Those rules and standards form the basis by which we are required in all but the most unusual of circumstances to adhere to. Inevitably there will be rules and standards that we might as individuals view as unnecessary or interpretive, nevertheless we are required to comply with the norm. This type of event might have attracted little attention by way of a violation, in a historical gentler time, but only the most naive could believe that it would attract anything other than high profile and unwelcome attention in this day and age, and certainly when the "event" took place at a major international airport.
Whatever the perception of risk that might or might not have been occaisioned by this particular event, it undoubtably showed a severe lack of judgment and common sense on the part of those involved. That is obviously borne out by the fact that it is completely unrepresentative of the normal behaviour of other professional controllers in that or any other similar environment.
It is always easy to lend vicarious support to those who would rebel or display maverick tendancies, simply because the rules seem overly restrictive, or because we would wish to live in a different time, but there is little doubt that the parties involved in this incident, showed precious little awareness and perception as to the likely consequences.
Whatever the perception of risk that might or might not have been occaisioned by this particular event, it undoubtably showed a severe lack of judgment and common sense on the part of those involved. That is obviously borne out by the fact that it is completely unrepresentative of the normal behaviour of other professional controllers in that or any other similar environment.
It is always easy to lend vicarious support to those who would rebel or display maverick tendancies, simply because the rules seem overly restrictive, or because we would wish to live in a different time, but there is little doubt that the parties involved in this incident, showed precious little awareness and perception as to the likely consequences.
Now all we have to do is wait for the mee-dya to find out about all those other "Bring your kid to work" type people who let their kids have a go.
It's no different to someone here putting his kid at the controls of a 10,000 tonne coal train and telling him what to do, nor standing your young'un at the helm of a passenger ferry and giving them a steer.
The possibility of something going wrong isn't even worth working out, but we've now got a case of a bloke facing the prospect of losing his job for being a good parent, (another) case of the peckerheads in the media making a mountain out of a molehill, and the looming prospect of the inability to take your kids to work unless you're employed in a Call Centre - as long as you don't let them answer the phone when they're there...
I wish I was born 60 years ago... Living in a world of DC-3's and none of this bollocks...
It's no different to someone here putting his kid at the controls of a 10,000 tonne coal train and telling him what to do, nor standing your young'un at the helm of a passenger ferry and giving them a steer.
The possibility of something going wrong isn't even worth working out, but we've now got a case of a bloke facing the prospect of losing his job for being a good parent, (another) case of the peckerheads in the media making a mountain out of a molehill, and the looming prospect of the inability to take your kids to work unless you're employed in a Call Centre - as long as you don't let them answer the phone when they're there...
I wish I was born 60 years ago... Living in a world of DC-3's and none of this bollocks...
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It is always easy to lend vicarious support to those who would rebel or display maverick tendancies, simply because the rules seem overly restrictive, or because we would wish to live in a different time, but there is little doubt that the parties involved in this incident, showed precious little awareness and perception as to the likely consequences.
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Except that it isn't a requirement of being a "good parent" and neither is it a requirement that taking your kid to work means, where permitted, that necessarily means anything other than watching what it is mum or dad do. As a pilot if I take my kid to work, it means they sit in the cabin in flight with the prospect of seeing the business end on the ground. That is not as exciting as it used to be, but it is the reality of the current regime. Failure to comply with that regime would place my career in very real jeopardy, as well as possibly affecting the careers of my colleagues who I would otherwise place in a seriously invidious position.
There are occupations where the professionals concerned are expected to display a high level of maturity, awareness and sound judgment. That is certainly the case with these two professions, and the overwhelming majority of participants (who might regret the reality of the situation) comply absolutely with those requirements. That doesn't make them bad parents, in fact quite the opposite.
There are occupations where the professionals concerned are expected to display a high level of maturity, awareness and sound judgment. That is certainly the case with these two professions, and the overwhelming majority of participants (who might regret the reality of the situation) comply absolutely with those requirements. That doesn't make them bad parents, in fact quite the opposite.
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It is interesting that those making excuses for and otherwise defending the controller in this thread are the ones, in much larger proportion than their opponents, making insulting personal remarks about other posters. Not in every case certainly, but the difference between groups is clear.
Perhaps I should run a contingency table analysis and come up with a Fisher's exact P value.
Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't bother me a bit if directed at me. But I'm curious .... why all the animus?
Perhaps I should run a contingency table analysis and come up with a Fisher's exact P value.
Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't bother me a bit if directed at me. But I'm curious .... why all the animus?
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Once on the runway the standard next comand is cleared for take off 100 % of the time. The next comand is contact departure. All ATC and pilots know this and letting the kid say it did not compromise safety because it took no judgement. If you are on the runway you are cleared for takeoff, once clear of the airport you contact departure 100 % of the time. Burning these guys might feel like fun for letting this happen to CNN but the airline pilots participating sounded like they enjoyed the unique comands and thought it was a fun way to leave JFK. Let it rest.
Let it rest" is the best advice I've heard yet.
Maybe after two pages of posts for these kind of threads the Mods should lock the thread and turn it into a poll. That would give some satisfaction that all have had their say without rehashing the same points over and over.
Psychophysiological entity
I wish I was born 60 years ago... Living in a world of DC-3's and none of this bollocks...
DC3s were either too cold, too hot, certainly too noisy and had...erm, too many loose rivets.
There was...or were, just as many bollocks about in those days, it's just that they were of a different flavor...I hasten to add, flavor, in physics parlance that is.
I fear that the bloke will have to have a little more than a slap on the wrist, but I for one hope that he's allowed to regain his job fairly quickly.
.........take your kids to work unless you're employed in a Call Centre - as long as you don't let them answer the phone when they're there...
Why can't companies, corporations, employ telephone answerers who have at least some knowledge of the product that they represent ?
A pox on all of them I say.
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kids at work
I took the advice from a member of this forum and removed the "rod" and laid back. Then the tought struck me that perhaps the bits that fell off the Jersey plane reported on another thread was down to another kid at work on maintenance.
The picture posted by Diamond bob is the clue:
The picture posted by Diamond bob is the clue:
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in 1994, a dad let his kids fly the plane. his 15 year old son took control after his sister and the plane crashed killing 75. this isn't nearly as bad.
These incidents always look sweet and innocent until something bad happens - then they look barbaric.
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But it amuses me that lots of people say, "What was he thinking? How could he have thought he'd get away with that? Didn't he understand what the Internet would do?"
The answer, I think, is that he's a controller. "Controllers Tell Pilots Where To Go," as the once-popular bumper sticker used to have it. It never occurred to this guy, in a sense, that he couldn't do what he damned well decided, after briefly thinking about it, that he wanted to do.
And good for him. It's a trait fast disappearing.
The answer, I think, is that he's a controller. "Controllers Tell Pilots Where To Go," as the once-popular bumper sticker used to have it. It never occurred to this guy, in a sense, that he couldn't do what he damned well decided, after briefly thinking about it, that he wanted to do.
And good for him. It's a trait fast disappearing.
I hope he survives and prospers but I also hope he has been reminded of an important rule for all of us...Always Protect Your Backside - Always!
Perhaps that can be the last word that we all agree with (now THERE'S overconfidence!).
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Panop
............................................................ ..................
............................................................ ........ And risk assessment surely is the primary function of a controller.
I hope he survives and prospers but I also hope he has been reminded of an important rule for all of us...Always Protect Your Backside - Always!
............................................................ .....................
............................................................ ........ And risk assessment surely is the primary function of a controller.
I hope he survives and prospers but I also hope he has been reminded of an important rule for all of us...Always Protect Your Backside - Always!
............................................................ .....................
And your remark about backsides is also exactly (although regretably)right. It now appears to be more important to cover your rear, than to have a clear assessment of real risk.
Roger.
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Child atc better sometime
Sure the child did a better job than the bored woman atc that sent almost to death the passenger of two airliners in Charlotte !!I had to play 10 times the recording to understand her language! I agree! Sent the reporter to guantanamo!