JFK ATC in the news...
Mr Mouse, no one is saying "Hey! This is fine! Let's have every controller bring their kids in to talk on the radio!"
There are RULES and rules. This was a broken rule - deserves a slap on the wrist, not the destruction of a career.
There are RULES and rules. This was a broken rule - deserves a slap on the wrist, not the destruction of a career.
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M Mouse, I understand your point. But that question always existed. The difference between this generation and past generations is that common sense and discretion were applied then, whereas now we live in a nanny generation where we have to have warnings on peanut packets that they may contain peanuts! We also got away with a great deal more because there wasn't the kind of media circus that we have now. I too do not suggest all controllers bring their kids to work and use the r/t. I just don't think that the guy should be sacked. He should receive a slap on the wrist and an "official" warning. End of story.
How in God's name do we get youngsters interested in aviation nowadays?
When I was a kid, my local airport had a public enclosure and we could get within 100 feet of airliners. Tell me where, at airfields such as Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted that youngsters can get near aircraft nowadays?
When I was a kid, my father took me round the hangars and taught me to respect aeroplanes. From as long as I can remember, I was allowed to sit in flight decks and kind people took me around showing me how things worked and why they were there. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I was taken flying in aeroplanes from gliders to airliners by kind people whenever I was in the right place at the right time. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I was allowed to get really dirty washing cowlings, changing tyres, exhaust gaskets and God knows what else. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I invariably was allowed to visit the flight deck when we went on holiday and I already knew how to behave whilst there. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, we visited control towers, ATC centres, airfield fire stations etc etc. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
The po-faced, never-done-anything, elfin safety, so-called security experts, politically correct and generally cowardly pratts have completely ruined aviation for the younger generation (and for those of us who are still in it). They have taken their young adventurous ambitions away from them and they should rot in hell for that.
God how I pray for a serious outbreak of common sense, for you humourless pillocks out there depress the hell out of me.
Rant over.
When I was a kid, my local airport had a public enclosure and we could get within 100 feet of airliners. Tell me where, at airfields such as Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted that youngsters can get near aircraft nowadays?
When I was a kid, my father took me round the hangars and taught me to respect aeroplanes. From as long as I can remember, I was allowed to sit in flight decks and kind people took me around showing me how things worked and why they were there. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I was taken flying in aeroplanes from gliders to airliners by kind people whenever I was in the right place at the right time. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I was allowed to get really dirty washing cowlings, changing tyres, exhaust gaskets and God knows what else. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, I invariably was allowed to visit the flight deck when we went on holiday and I already knew how to behave whilst there. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
When I was a kid, we visited control towers, ATC centres, airfield fire stations etc etc. Tell me where you can do that nowadays?
The po-faced, never-done-anything, elfin safety, so-called security experts, politically correct and generally cowardly pratts have completely ruined aviation for the younger generation (and for those of us who are still in it). They have taken their young adventurous ambitions away from them and they should rot in hell for that.
God how I pray for a serious outbreak of common sense, for you humourless pillocks out there depress the hell out of me.
Rant over.
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It's amazing to read all the support for the controller from pro's and supposed pro's. I had presumed as a group they generally would have understood WHY this is a serious judgement error.
HD and others with the management experience knows why it is a serious indication of poor judgement. The fact that no birds fell out of the sky in this occasion is irrelevant.
The issue is that the guy determined on his own the parameters by which it was/is OK for him to operate and perform his sworn duties. NoNoNo. Don't work that way when the duty and responsibility is to protect mult millions$ of hardware, multi millions$ potential liabilties in event of bent and broken and burning stuff, and the general well being of hundreds of PAYING passengers. The PAYING passengers presume when buying your services that you will maintain your sworn commitment to your job duty. Laxness is for giving your kid the stick in your sport plane and if you both auger in...oh well you went together dong what you love.
The FAA is obligated to enforce because it IS an enforcement agency...get it? A law enforcement agency. The F-up here is really an issue of insubordination, and one of no established limitations and directives for what is OK and what is not if it is allowed that a controller and his local supervisor are given leeway to bring 10yo's into the tower at their discretion. If that is OK, then where is the limit line? There are thousands of controllers. How then will YOU who feel this a nanny-state overcontrol problem KNOW that one of those controllers will not evr give theier kid vector instructions to relay, get up for a cup of coffe, kid relays an error, pilot laughs, turns for 025 instead of 250 and ...oops. 400die, 2 big birds down, a billion$ oopsy. Keep it to your small venue for having fun.
On the other hand, why didn't the guy ask to calnder a 'bring our kid to work' day. That would be great. We all love that. Uhg.
HD and others with the management experience knows why it is a serious indication of poor judgement. The fact that no birds fell out of the sky in this occasion is irrelevant.
The issue is that the guy determined on his own the parameters by which it was/is OK for him to operate and perform his sworn duties. NoNoNo. Don't work that way when the duty and responsibility is to protect mult millions$ of hardware, multi millions$ potential liabilties in event of bent and broken and burning stuff, and the general well being of hundreds of PAYING passengers. The PAYING passengers presume when buying your services that you will maintain your sworn commitment to your job duty. Laxness is for giving your kid the stick in your sport plane and if you both auger in...oh well you went together dong what you love.
The FAA is obligated to enforce because it IS an enforcement agency...get it? A law enforcement agency. The F-up here is really an issue of insubordination, and one of no established limitations and directives for what is OK and what is not if it is allowed that a controller and his local supervisor are given leeway to bring 10yo's into the tower at their discretion. If that is OK, then where is the limit line? There are thousands of controllers. How then will YOU who feel this a nanny-state overcontrol problem KNOW that one of those controllers will not evr give theier kid vector instructions to relay, get up for a cup of coffe, kid relays an error, pilot laughs, turns for 025 instead of 250 and ...oops. 400die, 2 big birds down, a billion$ oopsy. Keep it to your small venue for having fun.
On the other hand, why didn't the guy ask to calnder a 'bring our kid to work' day. That would be great. We all love that. Uhg.
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jfd58
I took no oath to be an airline pilot. I took one to be a soldier in the United States Army and was very , very proud to make that oath.
I think passengers presume way too much. There is no airline pilot oath, like a doctor's hypocratic oath.
The FAA has made many more mistakes than just letting a kid repeat, like a parrot, a clearance for takeoff.
IF the PASSENGERS want us to take an oath...fine...I am all for it...but you as passengers will have to pay more for your ticket as that oath comes with a price.
Pay for an upper middle class lifestyle for me and my small family within 1 hour driving time of my domicile/base airport parking lot.
A promise that I will have an honorable retirement for me and my family when I hit a lawfully mandated retirement age.
That the airline I fly for maintains the planes with proper mechanics in the USA
And that the airlines hire really good looking girls to be FA's.
the last one is optional I suppose, the others are not!
I took no oath to be an airline pilot. I took one to be a soldier in the United States Army and was very , very proud to make that oath.
I think passengers presume way too much. There is no airline pilot oath, like a doctor's hypocratic oath.
The FAA has made many more mistakes than just letting a kid repeat, like a parrot, a clearance for takeoff.
IF the PASSENGERS want us to take an oath...fine...I am all for it...but you as passengers will have to pay more for your ticket as that oath comes with a price.
Pay for an upper middle class lifestyle for me and my small family within 1 hour driving time of my domicile/base airport parking lot.
A promise that I will have an honorable retirement for me and my family when I hit a lawfully mandated retirement age.
That the airline I fly for maintains the planes with proper mechanics in the USA
And that the airlines hire really good looking girls to be FA's.
the last one is optional I suppose, the others are not!
To those equating this to a surgeon allowing their kid to make a cut you are all idiots. It is clearly not the same since, if the cut was made incorrectly, it cannot be unmade or corrected in any way whatsoever. The cut exists.
But in this case, no matter what the radio call, it can be immediately countermanded or corrected, and no foul done. Let's be honest here - has every single radio call any one of us made always been 100% correct? I hear corrections broadcast all the time.
This is a case of internet hype blowing a fool-hardy act out of all proportion. 10 years ago this would have gone unnoticed by all. Doesn't mean it was a good idea. But Jet Blue 171 made it through this experience, right? The difference unfortunately now is that we live in an age where you can't fart in public without permission from the p-c police or reading some regulation and signing a waiver.
Sure, the controller needs a good bollocking and a written warning, don't do it again ever, or you're out, etc... but the only reason to fire the guy is to protect the up chain management who now look like they have no control over their staff and have 3 months of paper work to fill out in triplicate before the weekend.
- GY
But in this case, no matter what the radio call, it can be immediately countermanded or corrected, and no foul done. Let's be honest here - has every single radio call any one of us made always been 100% correct? I hear corrections broadcast all the time.
This is a case of internet hype blowing a fool-hardy act out of all proportion. 10 years ago this would have gone unnoticed by all. Doesn't mean it was a good idea. But Jet Blue 171 made it through this experience, right? The difference unfortunately now is that we live in an age where you can't fart in public without permission from the p-c police or reading some regulation and signing a waiver.
Sure, the controller needs a good bollocking and a written warning, don't do it again ever, or you're out, etc... but the only reason to fire the guy is to protect the up chain management who now look like they have no control over their staff and have 3 months of paper work to fill out in triplicate before the weekend.
- GY
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What a shame it has come to this- the nanny state wins again.
Just a few years ago, we would all have smiled at this. Then the internet came along and internet forums spoiled any fun anyone in this industry ever had. Everyone's sense of humour removed forever. Now, the smallest mistake is aired for all- there is nowhere to hide!
I have had ATCO's on my flight deck- I let one call his unit with our initial call inbound- dangerous, no- did it break the rules, of course, but we all smiled when the ATCO answering guessed it was his colleague making the call.
Along with constant QAR monitoring, sterile cockpits, locked doors this industry is going the wrong way. Does it make for a safer sky? I'm not so sure.
OK, so the controller was clearly given permission to bring his kid to the tower for the day- he wouldn't be there alone- most towers at large international airports have minimum 5 or 6 people in the tower so all there would be guilty by association. It probably made everyone's day! He has been caught out this time- guilty by internet- and he just deserves a slap on the wrist and don't do it again!
Hands up who would recommend that their kids come into this business now!
Just a few years ago, we would all have smiled at this. Then the internet came along and internet forums spoiled any fun anyone in this industry ever had. Everyone's sense of humour removed forever. Now, the smallest mistake is aired for all- there is nowhere to hide!
I have had ATCO's on my flight deck- I let one call his unit with our initial call inbound- dangerous, no- did it break the rules, of course, but we all smiled when the ATCO answering guessed it was his colleague making the call.
Along with constant QAR monitoring, sterile cockpits, locked doors this industry is going the wrong way. Does it make for a safer sky? I'm not so sure.
OK, so the controller was clearly given permission to bring his kid to the tower for the day- he wouldn't be there alone- most towers at large international airports have minimum 5 or 6 people in the tower so all there would be guilty by association. It probably made everyone's day! He has been caught out this time- guilty by internet- and he just deserves a slap on the wrist and don't do it again!
Hands up who would recommend that their kids come into this business now!
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Harmless, probably. Stupid, certainly.
At the same time I wonder if people here are serious when they want to have the fellow thrown out? As been said before, a good bollocking is in order although I guess that he has learned his lesson by now. Being the father of two boys, age 10 and 12, I really feel sorry for the kid. How the hell is he supposed to deal with this ****storm?
At the same time I wonder if people here are serious when they want to have the fellow thrown out? As been said before, a good bollocking is in order although I guess that he has learned his lesson by now. Being the father of two boys, age 10 and 12, I really feel sorry for the kid. How the hell is he supposed to deal with this ****storm?
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Has anyone heard the whole tape, not just the 'cut and paste' bits played on the BBC news? It may well be that the ATCO previously told the pilots that the clearance was going to come from his son. Nobody seemed surprised after all!
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i dont think its been mentioned on here yet that the same controller brought his daughter to work the day after this happened and let her make two calls to aircraft!
i think the big issue for most people on here is the WHAT IF something went wrong,we all know nothing did but just suppose it did, just say dad got distracted like in the areoflot accident or the controller who was joking on the phone when one of his aircraft dropped out of radio contact just before it hit a helicopter.
if an accident had of happened would it still of all been just a bit of fun?
i think the big issue for most people on here is the WHAT IF something went wrong,we all know nothing did but just suppose it did, just say dad got distracted like in the areoflot accident or the controller who was joking on the phone when one of his aircraft dropped out of radio contact just before it hit a helicopter.
if an accident had of happened would it still of all been just a bit of fun?
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"WIll all those saying it was fine please also answer the question where do you draw the line and how?"
It's been answered before on this thread, but for those not reading much of it, the dividing line is between controlling and simply speaking a line that his father fed him. Did the kid check intersecting taxiways, estimate the time-to-touchdown of the aircraft on half-mile final, ensure clearance from the previous departure and then tell JetBlue to go? No. He spoke the words his daddy told him to speak, and he may not even have known what they meant.
His sole responsibility was to enunciate clearly (and if he hadn't, "Say again?" would have worked just fine). Any responsibility beyond that crosses the line you wish drawn.
It's been answered before on this thread, but for those not reading much of it, the dividing line is between controlling and simply speaking a line that his father fed him. Did the kid check intersecting taxiways, estimate the time-to-touchdown of the aircraft on half-mile final, ensure clearance from the previous departure and then tell JetBlue to go? No. He spoke the words his daddy told him to speak, and he may not even have known what they meant.
His sole responsibility was to enunciate clearly (and if he hadn't, "Say again?" would have worked just fine). Any responsibility beyond that crosses the line you wish drawn.
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If you listen to the clip from LiveATC (login needed), you'll here the father doing most of the talking, particularly for "complex" instructions.
He was clearly there, on top of the situation, able to jump in and explained to the pilots his kid was there.
Though I doubt that will do anything to hold back the "Kid breaks into JFK Tower, holds ATC hostage and causes mayhem in the skies whilst dad is having a beer, fag and a kip outside" brigade.
He was clearly there, on top of the situation, able to jump in and explained to the pilots his kid was there.
Though I doubt that will do anything to hold back the "Kid breaks into JFK Tower, holds ATC hostage and causes mayhem in the skies whilst dad is having a beer, fag and a kip outside" brigade.
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I think this should bring to light something else...many times, passengers might be on a plane in which the ''new'' pilot may have never actually flown that type of plane before...certainly there has been simulator training and there is a ''check'' pilot up front too...but the first time he is really PILOTING THE PLANE is with PAYING PASSENGERS onboard.
now that should make headlines too
now that should make headlines too
Unfortunately this whole situation is a reflection of modern life from politicians down to the so-called managers.The guy should be called into an office and told the whole thing was a decidedly wrong move and he should not do it again, end of story. To be sacked is in my view just wrong, and a waste of money, somebody has to be trained to replace him ... and experience costs time...years. The press as an entity are to blame here - what do they know about aviation? They just have to sell news- as everybody keeps complaining about on these hallowed pages. The whole world needs a slap in the face and for commonsense, respect and a sense of humour to return. This is but one example. End of rant.
Tin hat on and away.
Tin hat on and away.
I thought it was cool. If it was such a life-or-death situation, for a kid to repeat dad saying cleared for departure, why did it take two weeks and a YouTube video for the media or anyone else to notice?
The kid was not clearing planes to avoid traffic, land, or taxi, and even JFK can have slow times. None of the pilots seemed confused about the instructions.
Yes, bad judgement for ATC not knowing the media would turn it into a circus.
This was February 16th. Let's see... Much of the Mid-Atlantic region of the US was shut down due to record snowfalls, which with the flight cancellations presumably slowed flights into and out of JFK considerably, and the Winter Olympics had started, so the news media had far more important and popular things to worry about.
Tempest in a teapot, unless driving enthusiastic youngsters out of the field of aviation is the goal.
The kid was not clearing planes to avoid traffic, land, or taxi, and even JFK can have slow times. None of the pilots seemed confused about the instructions.
Yes, bad judgement for ATC not knowing the media would turn it into a circus.
This was February 16th. Let's see... Much of the Mid-Atlantic region of the US was shut down due to record snowfalls, which with the flight cancellations presumably slowed flights into and out of JFK considerably, and the Winter Olympics had started, so the news media had far more important and popular things to worry about.
Tempest in a teapot, unless driving enthusiastic youngsters out of the field of aviation is the goal.