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Irish ATC Disruption 20 Jan 2010

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Irish ATC Disruption 20 Jan 2010

Old 21st Jan 2010, 10:53
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With the pay quoted in these pages , it explains why we hear *strines and kiwis operating shannon enroute. They aint there for the weather thats for sure!
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 12:48
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As an American that has been flying for a European carrier for almost two years now, I must say that most of the controllers here are wussies. I am absolutely flabergasted at the slot times (CTOT) we get because of congestion (especially Austria), only to get airborne and hear very little on frequency. Vienna controllers must have a clause in their contract that limits them to handling no more than 3 a/c at a time. What a joke. ATC here in Europe has equipment that is 20-30 years newer and better than in the States, yet they seem to be capable of so much less! I wince when I imagine how euro controllers would manage Chicago O'Hare, LAX, or JFK approach on a normal day. A busy day would absolutely eat their lunches!
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 13:59
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Smile eyes front

Jules sometimes it helps to dig back. if only for other peoples morale.
I still encourage any Seriously interested visitors to visit
2010 Irish ATC dispute get the facts
and get the real facts.
Outing this particular thread as an IAA run forum for the benefit of the press needed to be done.
Look how much more civil it has become since they left.

I also maintain that ATCOs effectively shut themselves off from an increasingly vindictive and bullying IBEC controlled media.
The media and public opinion will play no part in solving this issue and most people believe about arse point 2 percent of anything the RYR CEO says anyway so dont let it get to you, work is stress media is bulls**t!

Stay off the forum as much as possible, we know ,now, that management are here in force.
Keep radio silence and stay together.
Tarq57
Thanks for the support and the wisdom.

"grab yer gun and bring the cat in Starbuck"
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 14:43
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Viper1

You have me a tad confused.

Are the ATCO's down here because the pilots are up there or are the pilots up there because the ATCO's are down here?

You may like to think that they control them all but without aircraft there would not be any jobs for them. Now we all know that that is not going to happen, but as traffic reduces there is a requirement for less ATCO's...and the opposite is also true.

The problem here is that the traffic is reducing...and has been for at least a year. Impact need a sniff of reality. I couldn't care less if they earn 500,000 or more a year...but it should be based on performance.

Dublin is probably one of the only airports where if you are approaching from the east and they are landing on RWY28 that they will actually turn you onto an easterly heading on approach in order to keep a SEVEN MILE separation...in VMC!! Before you say it doesnt happen, it does...I have operated where I was wondering if I was going to end up getting handed back over to Manchester Control

By all means pay them the money if that's what they want...but it has to mean an increase in productivity.

Incidentally, landed on RWY16 today. They are obviously on a work to rule. Flew the full VATRY3U arrival...poetry in motion. Nobody ******* things up!
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 15:16
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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only to get airborne and hear very little on frequency.
That might be quite high on the stupid comment scale!

You do realise that the regulating sector can be at any point in your flight, and maybe not even in Austria?

I used to work at a TWR/APP way up north of the artic circle, and "often" had to hold aircraft for up to 2 hrs....even if if was the only one, and maybe one of 5-6 in in each sector all the way down Norway on a quiet Saturday afternoon.
All because of because of staff shortage at London ACC!

If you are on a short domestic flight, then fair comment, and I'll crawl under my rock again.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 18:20
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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As an American that has been flying for a European carrier for almost two years now, I must say that most of the controllers here are wussies. I am absolutely flabergasted at the slot times (CTOT) we get because of congestion (especially Austria), only to get airborne and hear very little on frequency. Vienna controllers must have a clause in their contract that limits them to handling no more than 3 a/c at a time. What a joke. ATC here in Europe has equipment that is 20-30 years newer and better than in the States, yet they seem to be capable of so much less! I wince when I imagine how euro controllers would manage Chicago O'Hare, LAX, or JFK approach on a normal day. A busy day would absolutely eat their lunches!
Thats because we have to talk to too many americans pilots that can't understand english and continually moan about a little bumpy air that every european pilot doesn't even mention. Wind your neck in.


Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%
I'm confused at where the 25% drop in traffic has come from??

If traffic at the airports fell by 15% then how do you get a 25% drop in overall traffic levels? Unless overflights/transatlantic fell by something like 40% (which it hasn't) and thats presuming that Irish traffic is split 50/50 between aerodrome traffic and overflights (which i seriously doubt it is).

And the 6% rise has already been negotiated, The IAA don't want to pay it. If you were promised a 6% payrise and then your employers tryed to get out of it wouldn't you be a bit upset?

I couldn't care less if they earn 500,000 or more a year...but it should be based on performance.
Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible, its not their fault if the airlines aren't flying the same amount as they were last year. They get paid and should get paid irrespective of how many aircraft they work be it one at a time or one hundred.

And do you get paid less when you fly less than full aircraft?? Doubt it.

With the pay quoted in these pages , it explains why we hear *strines and kiwis operating shannon enroute. They aint there for the weather thats for sure!
If they were in it for the money they'd be in the middle east.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 20:23
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true

1985
True, at least someone is trying to stay on track.
In Dublin the hourly capacity on rwy 10/28 is about 44 per hour in 2006- 2008 we were regularly shifting 51/52 per hour so if capacity has dropped 25% from then then I reckon at 40 movements we are operating at 90% or more of our main runways published safe capacity.
Anyway thats nit picking

It doesn't matter what the traffic levels are, everyone knows that there were only 2 aircraft in the sector at Uberlingen and look at the tragedy there.
The fact that new technology was a factor in this should never be overlooked cos it's not always a good thing.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 23:16
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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@sback - next time you are returning to Ljubljana think twice about the ATCOS and what they do. We have very good relations with your carrier, we practice jump-seat flights and your coleuges visit us from time to time. We talk. You just chew.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 06:04
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible
Well, not quite, and certainly not in the UK ....

"An ATC service is provided according to the particular circumstances and class of
airspace, for the purpose of:
a) preventing collisions between aircraft in the air;
b) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft moving on the apron and the
manoeuvring area;
c) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft and obstructions on the
manoeuvring area;
d) expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic."

MATS Part 1, page 1
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 07:03
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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It is amazing how performance related pay is always quoted when there is a downturn in traffic levels. I don't remember anyone getting an 8-9% increase a few years ago when traffic was increasing by that amount (at least in my unit) and an increase in wages in line with the increase in traffic figures would have been laughed at!!!
I agree we are well paid and have good working conditions (mostly) but it is all down to good old market forces.
Let's face it commercial pilot is still seen as a fairly glamorous job and most little boys want to be one and therefore there is a high take up rate ( and you pilots haven't done too much to discourage that impression have you )
ATCO on the other hand is seen as a stressful black magic art where you sit in a dark room chain smoking and putting yourself into an early grave and therefore no-one ever says at the age of 6 "I want to be an Air Traffic Controller" and therefore take up is low.
Couple this with the fact that most people will get their pilots licence if you throw enough money and time at them Whereas most people cannot do an ATCo job no matter how much money or time you allow them which is why there is still a 50% failure rate even though companies have spent millions studying and developing selection tests! Ok ( before you start ) I know any monkey can control 2 cessnas an hour at a local field.
As you may have guessed I am an ATCO and these views are entirely personal but to those of you whinging about not getting any directs the other day - it just shows you what you get every day and take for granted Why shouldn't you fly the route you have filed? The future will be flying filed routes and at the level you have filed as well just to make slot times, and ATCO's will not be able to deviate from that because the system tells them they can't - is that progress???
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 08:57
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible
Well, not quite, and certainly not in the UK ....


"An ATC service is provided according to the particular circumstances and class of
airspace, for the purpose of:
a) preventing collisions between aircraft in the air;
b) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft moving on the apron and the
manoeuvring area;
c) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft and obstructions on the
manoeuvring area;
d) expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic."

MATS Part 1, page 1

Expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic does not mean let as many flights as possible go.

The Mats 1 quote above mentions preventing collisions three times therefore thats what i see as the main crux of my job. Expediting and maintaining means making sure that the the traffic does what it has filed to do as quickly and as efficiently as possible. If that means delays, no directs, holding etc to achieve that then thats what any ATCO will do. That's how the system works. Expediting and maintaining is the fourth point for a reason.

If pay is performance based ie per aircraft worked, then people will be working upto the point of exhaustion, not splitting sectors when they should and cutting corners to work more. Thats the nature of people. Every ATCO works with safety as their first, second and third priorities, being expeditious comes later once everything is safe. As you progress through training and gain more experience then the two work together as you learn that you can be both expeditious and safe, but the default position is always safety, safety, safety.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 09:32
  #52 (permalink)  

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Amazing the amount of rubbish being spouted here by so-called professional pilots. Normally there would have been calls for threads to be locked, people banned etc. Just because you have 2/3/4/200 rings on your sleeve it doesn't make you an expert on something you know nothing about.


So are RYR flights no longer being greeted with "Top of the morning to you," but, "Top of the stack ...."?
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 10:57
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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It's quite amazing to hear the vitriol spouted by so-called professional pilots here.
Yes, ATCO's are essentially public servants but I don't know too many ( if any ) public servants who can serve over 3 years of their life to study & then get failed at the final hurdle. The failure rate in ATC is very close to 50%. I don't think this happens in the pilot fraternity, even with mummy & daddy's money to give them their commercial pilots licence.Most students enter this profession between 18-20 & have NO outside experience. Try picking up a job at 23 with NO qualification & an extremely specialised experience..good luck.

If ATC was put in the private sector you could definitely expect to pay a lot more for the service but alas the pilot fraternity looks only into their own microcosm that is their cockpit. Keep looking at the stewardesses boys, one day you might have enough intellect to look outside the cockpit.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 13:53
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Aside from the reasons for the dispute, mismanaged PR etc. what I can't understand is why the controllers are effectively working to rule with their airline customers, no flexibility, no direct routings, know of a case today of ONE aircraft on frequency routing to a regional airport, asked for a direct routing, NO SIR not today, proceed as planned, must have added an extra five minutes. Your gripe is with the IAA, it has been a devastating time for the industry economically, and over the last month with WX cancellations, why make it even more difficult for the airlines, this action achieves nothing, it may however contribute to further traffic dilution!

Last edited by iwhak; 22nd Jan 2010 at 15:30.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 15:11
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know of a case today of ONE aircraft on frequency routing to a regional airport, asked for a direct routing, NO SIR not today, procede as planned
Wasn't a ryanair by any chance?? If it was it doesn't surprise me after the crap MOL has been spouting. Wouldn't think that any ryanair will get a direct routing for a while. They are well known for continually asking for directs and filing a level that is a few thousand feet lower than the one they want to avoid flow restrictions and then requesting higher levels.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 15:31
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No wasn't Ryanair!
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 17:02
  #57 (permalink)  

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Surprised nobody has posted Ryanairs latest contribution to the debate, the following statement appears on their website and does not reflect the views of flowman:

"RYANAIR FORCED TO CANCEL FLIGHTS ON 20 JAN DUE TO IAA STRIKE"

ATC SEEK 6% PAYRISE DESPITE 25% FALL IN WORKLOAD

Due to industrial action by overpaid and underworked air traffic controllers in Ireland, Ryanair has been forced to cancel 52 flights today (20th Jan) affecting over 6,000 passengers. Please see the below list of cancelled flights which were scheduled to operate to and from Ireland today (20th Jan).

Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at [email protected] or on +353-1- 8171529.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%. These overpaid air traffic controllers should agree to substantial pay cuts to reflect the reduced productivity being demanded of them at Irish airports this year.



Why no mention of the French strike last week that must have affected a lot more than 6000 passengers? Why have they not supplied the e-mail address and phone numbers of the French strike organisers?
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 17:32
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I was just pleased to have a half day off, thanks folks.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 18:46
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Arrow

Thanks to all of those who supported irish air traffic controllers-our 14 suspended friends are back to work.Thank for the patience to all those pilots affectedwe are back to normal operations-expect direct routings
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 22:30
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Despite the countless media barrages by both sides, I'm still wondering what this "introduction of new technology" was all about.

As a disinterested observer I've formed the conclusion that the reluctance of the IAA to implement the 6% pay rise led to this situation.

The IAA historically seem to be a bit of a joke (ie the N reg scenario for eg)

The ATCO's/IMPACT need to either sort out their PR or take the hit. The controllers have an insulated financial/pension situation superior to all. Including Govt members.
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