Lufthansa Pilots to ballot on strike action
As I understand it, legacy carriers intentionally understimated the trouble generated by LCC in the beginning. Legacy carriers thought (i.e. liked to think) that LCC staff would eventually start a mutiny against management, chop their bosses' head off and impose "more decent" contractual terms, thereby putting an end to the LCC business model.
None of this happened apparently because LCC staff is scattered around Europe, and has very different backgrounds and perspectives on what a "decent contract" looks like. Well divided, easily conquered.
Not to mention the fact that Southwest was already very successful and popular among aviation staff across the US. Legacy carriers seem to have been blinded by their own anxiety and wishful thinking.
I don't think any pilot wants to fly for a crappy salary, or to fly more for less cash. But in the games against management either everyone's onboard, or there's no game (i.e. pilots loose).
Perhaps unions should have paid more attention to student pilots and LCC pilots right from the beginning?
None of this happened apparently because LCC staff is scattered around Europe, and has very different backgrounds and perspectives on what a "decent contract" looks like. Well divided, easily conquered.
Not to mention the fact that Southwest was already very successful and popular among aviation staff across the US. Legacy carriers seem to have been blinded by their own anxiety and wishful thinking.
I don't think any pilot wants to fly for a crappy salary, or to fly more for less cash. But in the games against management either everyone's onboard, or there's no game (i.e. pilots loose).
Perhaps unions should have paid more attention to student pilots and LCC pilots right from the beginning?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Usually, if you want more money or privileges, you argue with the quality of your work. However, in a recent air safety ranking published by www.aerointernational.de (yes, a German site), LH ranks only 19th in terms of safety (and well behind airlines whose pilots are apparently held in disregard by those sitting in LH cockpits).
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one, who actually is in the aviation industry would ever bring up those stupid rankings.
But this one is only for Al Fakim. Do not want to start a discussion about it...
Airline A:
fleet size: 300 aircraft
flights per day: 2000 flights (mostly short range)
Accidents: 2 in the last 60 years (100 fatalities)
0 in the last 15 years
Type of airports 10 % Cat C; 30 % Cat B; 60 % Cat A
Number of destinations: 165
Airline B:
fleet size: 100 aircraft
flights per day: 500 flights (mostly long range)
Accidents: 1 in the last 60 years (30 fatalities)
0 in the last 15 years
Type of airports 12 % Cat C; 22 % Cat B; 66 % Cat A
Number of destinations: 45
Who dares to pick the "safer" airline? Most statistics only consider number of accidents and number of fatalities. In this case Airline B would be "safer".. On the other hand, airline B would have had 4 accidents with 120 fatalities if it would have performed 2000 instead of 500 flights. But maybe it wouldn't have??
Or airline A: If it had only performed 500 flights a day, number of accidents would be 0.5 (
) with only 25 fatalities. On the other hand, those two accidents might still have happened in the remaining 500 flights?So, this is just to give you a basic idea, how hard it is to really have a fair statistic on aviation safety. A couple of facts on which airline has the more effective flight safety department (and how do you want to measure it) and so on would further complicate the statistic.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Al Fakhem
what a useless post.
Airlines like EY only 6 years old are ranked in front of airlines which last hull loss ist 15 or more years in the past.
The whole jadec safetyrating is a huge load of BS!!
what a useless post.
Airlines like EY only 6 years old are ranked in front of airlines which last hull loss ist 15 or more years in the past.
The whole jadec safetyrating is a huge load of BS!!
Austrian and Swiss employment law may well be different to the UK's. BALPA have made it clear to the UK arm of the Lufthansa group that if they (BALPA) advise the pilots not to operate flights for Lufthansa, they would be taken to court for encouraging strike action without a valid ballot. Also, if we as pilots, refuse to operate the flights we are in breach of contract and could face dismissal. In any case, by the end of this week, around 70 bmi pilots will get a letter giving them three months notice of being made redundant. If any of those pilots who feel they have nothing to lose refuse on principle to operate a Lufthansa strike-breaking flight I would be mightily impressed.
I'm sure BALPA will have spoken to VC and explained the situation but I would like to make it clear to any Lufthansa pilots reading this that bmi pilots do not want to be operating these flights, BALPA will be taken to court if they encourage us not to fly them and we face dismissal if we refuse individually. It is a horrible situation that none of us want to be in.
I'm sure BALPA will have spoken to VC and explained the situation but I would like to make it clear to any Lufthansa pilots reading this that bmi pilots do not want to be operating these flights, BALPA will be taken to court if they encourage us not to fly them and we face dismissal if we refuse individually. It is a horrible situation that none of us want to be in.
Last edited by Doug E Style; 21st Feb 2010 at 19:18.
. Do not operate as a flight-crew member in such a condition.... 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BALPA rep
@ EMA on a Sunday, trying to drum up membership at a German owned cargo outfit. Having introduced themselves in the Ops room to steer the guys down. 10 on a course, and one missed two crew op departed. Oh dear, and BALPA by default.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I making wrong connections here?
LH pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, strike action.
Fast forward a few months....
BD pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, tba...
And there was everybody wondering what LH had in store for bmibaby....
TA
LH pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, strike action.
Fast forward a few months....
BD pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, tba...
And there was everybody wondering what LH had in store for bmibaby....
TA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charly:
I would have no problems sitting a test in advanced statistical methods.
You selectively mention airlines which, indeed, cannot be compared to LH in size, history and mileage.
However, you conveniently do not mention those that easily compare, such as ANA or BA. ANA carries as many pax domestically as LH does internationally, so you can assume they have even more take-offs and landings.
I would have no problems sitting a test in advanced statistical methods.
You selectively mention airlines which, indeed, cannot be compared to LH in size, history and mileage.
However, you conveniently do not mention those that easily compare, such as ANA or BA. ANA carries as many pax domestically as LH does internationally, so you can assume they have even more take-offs and landings.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As studi puts it: We are all bound to our company due to seniority
Management isn't. So Mr Franz and Mr Lauer don’t care about the strike personally. Even if they fail - we will see that happen - there will be a warm place waiting.
The ultimate goal of airline-management is "Lufthansa Germany" (or BA, AF, KLM) reputation with "Lufthansa India" wages and working rules.
The strike is against a kind of "Philippinisation”. Just have a look at the shipping-industry....
Management isn't. So Mr Franz and Mr Lauer don’t care about the strike personally. Even if they fail - we will see that happen - there will be a warm place waiting.
The ultimate goal of airline-management is "Lufthansa Germany" (or BA, AF, KLM) reputation with "Lufthansa India" wages and working rules.
The strike is against a kind of "Philippinisation”. Just have a look at the shipping-industry....
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EDDF
Age: 52
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all my dear pilot collaegues who oppose our strike...
To all my dear pilot collaegues who oppose our strike...
It is always atleast as informative to ask the queastion:" why does somebody tell me a message?" than only listen to the content...
the reason why a reasonable pilot opposes a strike for valid contracts and against erodication of his work, can only be that he has no work to defend!
The work he is doing is not worth to raise his voice, there is no pride that strives one to protect his profession, he sees no future in what he is doing for living....
Only if you dont care about today and dont give a $hit about your future collagues, there is a reason not to stand tall today...
be safe
It is always atleast as informative to ask the queastion:" why does somebody tell me a message?" than only listen to the content...
the reason why a reasonable pilot opposes a strike for valid contracts and against erodication of his work, can only be that he has no work to defend!
The work he is doing is not worth to raise his voice, there is no pride that strives one to protect his profession, he sees no future in what he is doing for living....
Only if you dont care about today and dont give a $hit about your future collagues, there is a reason not to stand tall today...
be safe
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The most funny thing that a lot of pilots are whining about there declining terms and conditions, let it be at Easy, Emirates, Ryanair, Cargolux or whatever.
Now there is a group of pilots, of course a group which is treated much better than others, protesting against and they are treated like criminal and idiots.
What a strange world we are living in.
Now there is a group of pilots, of course a group which is treated much better than others, protesting against and they are treated like criminal and idiots.
What a strange world we are living in.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frosch :[
You could not have been more right : This has already started in other parts of the airline . A couple of months ago while refueling my single engine in Malta, I saw a large bunch of young Philipinos wearing LH badges walking by. I was told that there were " students" in Aircraft maintenance getting their European EASA accreditations. LH is investing massively in Malta and The Philippines to move away their traditional German maintenance bases.
I fully support what VC is doing because if this does not stop we will be next.
The ultimate goal of airline-management is "Lufthansa Germany" (or BA, AF, KLM) reputation with "Lufthansa India" wages and working rules.
The strike is against a kind of "Philippinisation”.
The strike is against a kind of "Philippinisation”.
I fully support what VC is doing because if this does not stop we will be next.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could not have been more right : This has already started in other parts of the airline . A couple of months ago while refueling my single engine in Malta, I saw a large bunch of young Philipinos wearing LH badges walking by. I was told that there were " students" in Aircraft maintenance getting their European EASA accreditations. LH is investing massively in Malta and The Philippines to move away their traditional German maintenance bases.
This is the problem of the majority of the pilots yelling here. They just see something ("being told"), but they do not understand what's behind.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: baires
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
didnt take the time 2 read all the posts here. just wanted 2 give my support 2 LH pilots in their strugle. whish u all the best. If u big guys dont stand 4 your rights, what is there for the rest of us. was about time 2 stop this cicle of declining wages and working conditions in this profession.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3miles :
Perhaps you are right , but the guys I saw were in their 20s so what you claim does not make much sense. Also looking at LH technick Malta company profile on the web (*) , it indeed says : " MCAST has been instrumental in training young men and women specifically for this industry which just two years ago started, experience-wise " but does not specify which nationality those "young men and women " really are and which contract they will have. Because if they were under German contracts and salaries, the nationality issue would disappear of course.
But , as I am not in the secrets of LH management, I have indeed to rely on what I am told.
And I am also told that currently A330-340 Checks are done in the Philippines and not in Frankfurt. A friend of mine just ferried one there last month.
As to the jobs staying "in Europe" , this is indeed the main issue : Lufthansa technik maintenance staff in Germany are likely to lose their jobs for Maltese ( and probably Philippinos) guys and girls in another part of Europe ( or the world) where the salaries and social conditions are certainly lower than those of current staff in Germany.
This is the main issue.
(*) : Lufthansa Technik Malta: The Company
You were totally wrong. What you saw were Philippinos training Maltese new staff, so that the work can stay in Europe
But , as I am not in the secrets of LH management, I have indeed to rely on what I am told.
And I am also told that currently A330-340 Checks are done in the Philippines and not in Frankfurt. A friend of mine just ferried one there last month.
As to the jobs staying "in Europe" , this is indeed the main issue : Lufthansa technik maintenance staff in Germany are likely to lose their jobs for Maltese ( and probably Philippinos) guys and girls in another part of Europe ( or the world) where the salaries and social conditions are certainly lower than those of current staff in Germany.
This is the main issue.
(*) : Lufthansa Technik Malta: The Company