NTSB report on Orient Thai/One-Two-Go OG269 released to families
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NTSB report on Orient Thai/One-Two-Go OG269 released to families
The entire NTSB public docket on the OG269 crash, , September 16, 2009, including the NTSB crash report, supporting material and Thailand's request for technical assistance.
The report would humorous, if it weren't so tragic. The report clearly states no technical failures and
It indicates a lack of honesty on the part of the Thai DCA investigators (no record of a NOTAM on LLWAS outage... don't worry, we believe you), references the excessive flight hours and continued illegal flight after the crash, and provides detailed instructions for the Thai DCA investigators to document the training, oversight, and human performance failures at Orient Thai/One-Two-Go.
A sampling:
See the report and material at: www.InvestigateUdom.com
The report would humorous, if it weren't so tragic. The report clearly states no technical failures and
"windshear was not a factor in this accident."
A sampling:
5.Document that One-Two-Go Airlines and Boeing procedures called for
the flying pilot to push the TO/GA button, advance the power, and call
for max power during a missed approach/go-around. Document that
the TO/GA button was not pushed and that this allowed the throttles to
retard to idle during the missed approach/go-around.
6. From the FDR information, document that the throttles retarded to idle
and remained at idle thrust for approximately 14 seconds. Document
that the throttles retarded to idle because the pilots failed to push the
TO/GA button during the missed approach/go-around.
7. From FDR and CVR information, determine and document why the
pilots failed to monitor the engine power setting and allowed the engine
power to remain at idle power for about 14 seconds during a critical
point in the missed approach/go-around.
8. Determine and document whether One-Two-Go Airlines training and
guidance provides sufficient information to pilots concerning the effects
of a failure to push the TO/GA button during a missed approach/goaround.
9. Determine and document whether One-Two-Go Airlines training
provides sufficient guidance to pilots concerning the need to apply,
monitor, and maintain sufficient power during a missed approach/goaround.
10. Document that weather conditions were not the cause of this accident,
but may have been a contributing factor
the flying pilot to push the TO/GA button, advance the power, and call
for max power during a missed approach/go-around. Document that
the TO/GA button was not pushed and that this allowed the throttles to
retard to idle during the missed approach/go-around.
6. From the FDR information, document that the throttles retarded to idle
and remained at idle thrust for approximately 14 seconds. Document
that the throttles retarded to idle because the pilots failed to push the
TO/GA button during the missed approach/go-around.
7. From FDR and CVR information, determine and document why the
pilots failed to monitor the engine power setting and allowed the engine
power to remain at idle power for about 14 seconds during a critical
point in the missed approach/go-around.
8. Determine and document whether One-Two-Go Airlines training and
guidance provides sufficient information to pilots concerning the effects
of a failure to push the TO/GA button during a missed approach/goaround.
9. Determine and document whether One-Two-Go Airlines training
provides sufficient guidance to pilots concerning the need to apply,
monitor, and maintain sufficient power during a missed approach/goaround.
10. Document that weather conditions were not the cause of this accident,
but may have been a contributing factor
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It was always going to be pilot error no matter what the background circumstances were.
Let this be a lesson to all commercial pilots in these days of increasing and aggressive, all-enveloping computer control of aircraft.
When in doubt use your skills as a pilot, take manual control and FLY the damned thing!
Sadly, all too often we see total reliance on the Flight Management Systems to the detriment of flying skills and with tragic results such as those at Phuket.
Let this be a lesson to all commercial pilots in these days of increasing and aggressive, all-enveloping computer control of aircraft.
When in doubt use your skills as a pilot, take manual control and FLY the damned thing!
Sadly, all too often we see total reliance on the Flight Management Systems to the detriment of flying skills and with tragic results such as those at Phuket.
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Sadly, all too often we see total reliance on the Flight Management Systems to the detriment of flying skills and with tragic results such as those at Phuket.
Next you are gonna say that the pilots in the Garuda crash in Indonesia had confusion as to what the speed the FMS was telling them to land at...
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I agree with both previous statements, but the greater point is:
This wasn't two incompentents who somehow slipped past management oversight; This is a case of a willfully dangerous, corrupt and illegal operator named Udom Tantiprasongchai who employs anyone -- skilled or unskilled, drug addicted or not drug addicted, English proficient or not English proficient <Yes, that's you I'm talking about> -- as long as that "commercial pilot" is willing to work for Udom's salary and airline. Of course, mostly only the unskilled or drug addicted or non-English speakers accepted those conditions.
And, of course, of a Thai Civil Aviation Authority, DCA, who accepts bribes whenever bad behavior -- as checkride fraud, maintenance malpractice,.... and commercial crash -- to look the other way. <Hey, Wittichai: How's your golf game? MUCH better than Udom's, I hear.>
This wasn't two incompentents who somehow slipped past management oversight; This is a case of a willfully dangerous, corrupt and illegal operator named Udom Tantiprasongchai who employs anyone -- skilled or unskilled, drug addicted or not drug addicted, English proficient or not English proficient <Yes, that's you I'm talking about> -- as long as that "commercial pilot" is willing to work for Udom's salary and airline. Of course, mostly only the unskilled or drug addicted or non-English speakers accepted those conditions.
And, of course, of a Thai Civil Aviation Authority, DCA, who accepts bribes whenever bad behavior -- as checkride fraud, maintenance malpractice,.... and commercial crash -- to look the other way. <Hey, Wittichai: How's your golf game? MUCH better than Udom's, I hear.>
Last edited by InvestigateUdom; 12th Dec 2009 at 16:44. Reason: typeo fix
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Everyone can see the proof of incompetence, corruption, and dangerous illegal flight at Orient Thai at www.InvestigateUdom.com.
(The Thai DCA even censored Orient Thai well after the crash after the proof of checkride fraud was made public on theite. An English translation of the Thai report is available here.)
The Thai DCA could have used OG269 as an opportunity to improve its aviation systems and work toward first world safety, instead it chose to cover-up, take bribes and attempt to control the story making ridiculous claims like windshear; like saying "no punishment would be imposed because the crash was unavoidable"; like attempting to cover-up the excessive flight hours and checkride fraud that continued months after killing 90 people in a horrific crash caused by sheer and basic incompetence.
It's too easy to blame dead pilots. Yes, Arief and Montri were clearly not competent, but the airline, led by Udom Tantiprasongchai, is corrupt and flaunted basic safety practices before and after the crash. If you don't like seeing this material or basic truth offends you, feel free to skip this thread.
(The Thai DCA even censored Orient Thai well after the crash after the proof of checkride fraud was made public on theite. An English translation of the Thai report is available here.)
The Thai DCA could have used OG269 as an opportunity to improve its aviation systems and work toward first world safety, instead it chose to cover-up, take bribes and attempt to control the story making ridiculous claims like windshear; like saying "no punishment would be imposed because the crash was unavoidable"; like attempting to cover-up the excessive flight hours and checkride fraud that continued months after killing 90 people in a horrific crash caused by sheer and basic incompetence.
It's too easy to blame dead pilots. Yes, Arief and Montri were clearly not competent, but the airline, led by Udom Tantiprasongchai, is corrupt and flaunted basic safety practices before and after the crash. If you don't like seeing this material or basic truth offends you, feel free to skip this thread.
Last edited by InvestigateUdom; 17th Dec 2009 at 23:48. Reason: Just noting that this post was in reply to a now deleted post from PiratePete aka .... :-)
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Looks ugly
Appendix D of the NTSB report looks pretty ugly. Even though I'm just SLF I will not be SLF on any Thailand-based operator anymore. This sort of situation requires official complicity. If the text of this report has not been redacted in some way, then there are real problems over there.
http://www.investigateudom.com/files/NTSB/427510.pdf
Edmund
http://www.investigateudom.com/files/NTSB/427510.pdf
Edmund
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This joke is very old.
Hajj 1998 was one of the most UNIQUE experiences of my aviation career. LTA and LTB were INCREDIBLE machines. I never new that you could defer a main DC T/R unit. Nor, did I know that you could LEGALLY secure a thrust reverser with heavy wire wrapped around the throttle lever! They had many SPECIAL maintenance procedures. The operation never seemed to be able to determine which set of regulations it was to follow.
Many direct hires went months waiting to get paid. I was externally contracted and did get paid, though I did play hard ball for reimbursement of contracted expenses.
The company could and should be better than it is! The employees and public deserve it.
Many direct hires went months waiting to get paid. I was externally contracted and did get paid, though I did play hard ball for reimbursement of contracted expenses.
The company could and should be better than it is! The employees and public deserve it.
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One report said that control of the aircraft was changed during a critical phase of the go-around.
Is this normal procedure? Could have this been a factor in the crash also?
Is this normal procedure? Could have this been a factor in the crash also?
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More on Thailand
Apologies for going slightly off topic, but this article in todays Bangkok Post illustrates the sort of problem in Thailand. Not just the excess baggage, but the trick with lost and found as well.
THAI boss faces more pressure
Thai Airways executive chairman Wallop Bhukkanasut is under growing pressure to quit as the airline's board meets tomorrow to set up a special committee of inquiry into the excess baggage scandal.
Wallop: No calls yet to step down
Finance Minister Korn Chatikavanij on Tuesday demanded the board thoroughly investigate claims Mr Wallop used his position to force the airline to carry for free excess luggage of about 390 kilogrammes from Japan to Thailand.
A THAI source said the board would consider setting up an inquiry committee tomorrow.
"Someone must be held responsible," THAI chairman Ampon Kitti-ampon said yesterday.
Based on preliminary findings, there appeared to be three people directly involved in the incident, but he declined to identify them.
The allegations came to light when a note criticising the behaviour of a senior executive member circulated among airline staff. Although no names were mentioned in the note, staff were quick to point to Mr Wallop.
It is alleged Mr Wallop and his wife travelled from Tokyo's Narita airport to Suvarnabhumi airport on Nov 14 with more than 40 suitcases weighing 390kg without paying excess weight charges. It should have cost them hundreds of thousands of baht.
The pair were also accused of bypassing customs controls by having the luggage, believed to contain mainly fruits, delivered to the lost-and-found channel at Suvarnabhumi airport.
Mr Wallop has not denied the accusations. He said the extra luggage belonged to a pu yai (senior figure) who asked him to deliver it to Wat Paknam Phasicharoen. The temple denied receiving the luggage.
Transport Minister Sohpon Zarum has given the board the green light to appoint a fact-finding committee to look into the allegations which have been circulating for a week.
Mr Sohpon said yesterday there could be no side-stepping an inquiry and he was obliged to take action in accordance with the findings.
"The matter is to be brought up for the board's consideration when it meets [tomorrow]. It is likely the board will set up a panel to probe the allegations," the source said.
Mr Wallop, who has close connections with Mr Sohpon, has requested leave of absence to allow the board to freely consider the matter.
The source said Mr Ampon has ordered officials to gather information about excess baggage and punitive measures to be submitted to the board meeting.
Mr Sohpon dismissed a call for Mr Wallop to be removed, saying the executive chairman could stay in his job until he might be found to have flouted the regulations.
"Too much talk is not good because it can create conflicts, especially if it is not their business. This can complicate attempts to solve the problem," he said.
Mr Ampon declined to say whether Mr Wallop should step down as a director. "Should Mr Wallop resign? It will depend on the findings ... I am not a judge," Mr Ampon said.
"My greatest concern in this case is whether passenger safety was affected. In any case, we need to review whether our regulations are sufficient. If they are not, then they must be changed."
The probe will focus on whether safety regulations were followed, how the 390kg of baggage was approved for loading on the flight and who was responsible for the excess baggage, he said.
Wallop: No calls yet to step downFinance Minister Korn Chatikavanij on Tuesday demanded the board thoroughly investigate claims Mr Wallop used his position to force the airline to carry for free excess luggage of about 390 kilogrammes from Japan to Thailand.
A THAI source said the board would consider setting up an inquiry committee tomorrow.
"Someone must be held responsible," THAI chairman Ampon Kitti-ampon said yesterday.
Based on preliminary findings, there appeared to be three people directly involved in the incident, but he declined to identify them.
The allegations came to light when a note criticising the behaviour of a senior executive member circulated among airline staff. Although no names were mentioned in the note, staff were quick to point to Mr Wallop.
It is alleged Mr Wallop and his wife travelled from Tokyo's Narita airport to Suvarnabhumi airport on Nov 14 with more than 40 suitcases weighing 390kg without paying excess weight charges. It should have cost them hundreds of thousands of baht.
The pair were also accused of bypassing customs controls by having the luggage, believed to contain mainly fruits, delivered to the lost-and-found channel at Suvarnabhumi airport.
Mr Wallop has not denied the accusations. He said the extra luggage belonged to a pu yai (senior figure) who asked him to deliver it to Wat Paknam Phasicharoen. The temple denied receiving the luggage.
Transport Minister Sohpon Zarum has given the board the green light to appoint a fact-finding committee to look into the allegations which have been circulating for a week.
Mr Sohpon said yesterday there could be no side-stepping an inquiry and he was obliged to take action in accordance with the findings.
"The matter is to be brought up for the board's consideration when it meets [tomorrow]. It is likely the board will set up a panel to probe the allegations," the source said.
Mr Wallop, who has close connections with Mr Sohpon, has requested leave of absence to allow the board to freely consider the matter.
The source said Mr Ampon has ordered officials to gather information about excess baggage and punitive measures to be submitted to the board meeting.
Mr Sohpon dismissed a call for Mr Wallop to be removed, saying the executive chairman could stay in his job until he might be found to have flouted the regulations.
"Too much talk is not good because it can create conflicts, especially if it is not their business. This can complicate attempts to solve the problem," he said.
Mr Ampon declined to say whether Mr Wallop should step down as a director. "Should Mr Wallop resign? It will depend on the findings ... I am not a judge," Mr Ampon said.
"My greatest concern in this case is whether passenger safety was affected. In any case, we need to review whether our regulations are sufficient. If they are not, then they must be changed."
The probe will focus on whether safety regulations were followed, how the 390kg of baggage was approved for loading on the flight and who was responsible for the excess baggage, he said.
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shame on aviation world rules
this fight will never be a success without all of you: family of victims to search the truth, journalist to inform public, pilots to give informations and to increase aviation security,...
This accident is one of the most documented to show the impact of a unsafety culture in a company. Despite this is also one of the ................................... less reprimanded!!! Paradox
None justice action against udom T. in thailand while it was announced by thai politics= scandalous
EC balcklist: what a joke: 3 months inscription and after left= scandalous
opacity of investigation = scandalous
Is it that kind of world aviation you want to fly?
the rules must change.
This accident is one of the most documented to show the impact of a unsafety culture in a company. Despite this is also one of the ................................... less reprimanded!!! Paradox
None justice action against udom T. in thailand while it was announced by thai politics= scandalous
EC balcklist: what a joke: 3 months inscription and after left= scandalous
opacity of investigation = scandalous
Is it that kind of world aviation you want to fly?
the rules must change.
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You are very much correct FEL1011.
Cannot defer any DC TR Unit.
The bailing wire you speak wrapped around the throttle to prevent Thrust Reverser operation makes me think that they did not have the proper pins to stow this in the correct way, or in the case of number 2 engine maybe not a stand to reach it.
Some how the way they operate there becomes either take it or leave it.
Wire around a throttle quadrant, well TIT, (This is Thailand)
The accepted way or go home..
I flew with Thaisky/Skyeyes and with a 747 company there in Thailand, not Orient Thai.
The things I seen really shocked me, almost every rule broken.
Yet the Thai DCA sits in on every sim check, not even a Tristar or 747 Qualified observer.
Sim checks when over due are falsified.
My last one was signed on the 747 and I did not even attend the sim,, this after a technical incident in CAI which we had to be towed off the runway after landing due to number 1 HYD system lost, I complained before the flight that I was overdue my sim check by over 1 month.. Amazing how they asked me to sign and back date this sim check after the Saudia Airlines started investigating.
This less than 2 years ago.
All Coverup.
Got away from this one, was bad for my B/P and license.
Thai people are good, the Thai DCA is a very, very corrupt government sponsored institution.
I think the ones of us that have flown in Thailand need to support this woman, she speaks the truth.
For someone that has never flown before she should be praised for her efforts.
Cannot defer any DC TR Unit.
The bailing wire you speak wrapped around the throttle to prevent Thrust Reverser operation makes me think that they did not have the proper pins to stow this in the correct way, or in the case of number 2 engine maybe not a stand to reach it.
Some how the way they operate there becomes either take it or leave it.
Wire around a throttle quadrant, well TIT, (This is Thailand)
The accepted way or go home..
I flew with Thaisky/Skyeyes and with a 747 company there in Thailand, not Orient Thai.
The things I seen really shocked me, almost every rule broken.
Yet the Thai DCA sits in on every sim check, not even a Tristar or 747 Qualified observer.
Sim checks when over due are falsified.
My last one was signed on the 747 and I did not even attend the sim,, this after a technical incident in CAI which we had to be towed off the runway after landing due to number 1 HYD system lost, I complained before the flight that I was overdue my sim check by over 1 month.. Amazing how they asked me to sign and back date this sim check after the Saudia Airlines started investigating.
This less than 2 years ago.
All Coverup.
Got away from this one, was bad for my B/P and license.
Thai people are good, the Thai DCA is a very, very corrupt government sponsored institution.
I think the ones of us that have flown in Thailand need to support this woman, she speaks the truth.
For someone that has never flown before she should be praised for her efforts.
Last edited by Earl; 17th Dec 2009 at 19:30.
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FeL1011,
Things have not changed there concerning pay.
When Thaisky was shut down everyone was owed money and had to buy a ticket home.
Yet Thaisky took our salary money and leased a MD 90, when they could not make the lease payments they removed one of the engines and tried to hide it to prevent the leasing company from repo for non payment.
This has all been posted less than 3 years ago.
When Skyeyes played their games we all just left on our own expense.
The Sky eyes aircraft is impounded with the UAE government, seen the Thaisky, Zoom aircraft in SHJ a few days ago.
All violations A/D AOC issues as why they are impounded.
Once they slip out of the Thai protection, they are eventually caught.
I do not know but having worked in Thailand I am truly believe that the pilots on 1 to go was probably out of duty time regulations. as this was standard procedure in many companies there.
Why the DCA did not accept this evidence especially when Udom was caught on tape lying to a news repoerter and trying to cover up about flying hours, duty times was beyond me.
The tape by the news was here on pprune in a previous thread.
Think this tape from the news is still available on the Investigate Udom web site.
Things have not changed there concerning pay.
When Thaisky was shut down everyone was owed money and had to buy a ticket home.
Yet Thaisky took our salary money and leased a MD 90, when they could not make the lease payments they removed one of the engines and tried to hide it to prevent the leasing company from repo for non payment.
This has all been posted less than 3 years ago.
When Skyeyes played their games we all just left on our own expense.
The Sky eyes aircraft is impounded with the UAE government, seen the Thaisky, Zoom aircraft in SHJ a few days ago.
All violations A/D AOC issues as why they are impounded.
Once they slip out of the Thai protection, they are eventually caught.
I do not know but having worked in Thailand I am truly believe that the pilots on 1 to go was probably out of duty time regulations. as this was standard procedure in many companies there.
Why the DCA did not accept this evidence especially when Udom was caught on tape lying to a news repoerter and trying to cover up about flying hours, duty times was beyond me.
The tape by the news was here on pprune in a previous thread.
Think this tape from the news is still available on the Investigate Udom web site.
Last edited by Earl; 17th Dec 2009 at 20:33.
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InvestigateUdom website
The video of Udom and Wittichai (Thai DCA) lying about the hours is on the InvestigateUdom website. Also the blackbox information.
Also proof of checkride fraud. Also proof of maintenance fraud. Also proof of vastly excessive work hours. And proof of DCA attempted cover-up. And more.
www.InvestigateUdom.com: See the "Flying while Corrupt" link for the details. As the NTSB report alludes to, Montri - the F/O - was unable to land the aircraft and attempted to hand control to Arief - the Captain - during the landing. Arief never responded and there was no one was flying the misconfigured aircraft for 14 seconds.
Also proof of checkride fraud. Also proof of maintenance fraud. Also proof of vastly excessive work hours. And proof of DCA attempted cover-up. And more.
www.InvestigateUdom.com: See the "Flying while Corrupt" link for the details. As the NTSB report alludes to, Montri - the F/O - was unable to land the aircraft and attempted to hand control to Arief - the Captain - during the landing. Arief never responded and there was no one was flying the misconfigured aircraft for 14 seconds.
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Cut price tickets, cut price safety - ninemsn Video
Go midway through the news report and listen to all the lies and deceit from this Thai operator concerning crew roster and duty times being illegal.
Go midway through the news report and listen to all the lies and deceit from this Thai operator concerning crew roster and duty times being illegal.
Last edited by Earl; 19th Dec 2009 at 02:10.
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New Thai Air Pres Laments on Corruption, Nepotism, Etc.
Another aside but relevant to the general discussion;
( Congratulations IU, very well done on the NTSB release!)
BBC NEWS | Business | New president raps Thai Airways
The new president of Thai Airways has strongly criticised political interference in his airline.
Mr Amranand slammed favouritism at his airline
Thailand's loss-making national carrier continues to struggle with enormous pressure from outside, Piyasvasti Amranand told the BBC.
The newly appointed head of Thai Airways was in London on a global road show to gather investor support.
"The management had not really been allowed to manage the company," Mr Amranand said in an unusually frank interview.
"The company had been interfered heavily by the board, by the politicians. That had substantially weakened the management of the company, and our response to the crisis."
Restructuring
He has been the airline's president for just four weeks. Mr Amranand said it had taken months of negotiations to secure a strong enough mandate for his new job.
On Monday, the state-owned carrier reported a net loss of $121m (£71.8m) for the July-to-September quarter.
The results were worse than analysts had expected. They forecast another loss in the fourth quarter, traditionally high season for tourism.
Thai Airways is currently overhauling its management and business operations after reporting a record loss in the last three months of 2008.
Mr Amranand seems an unusual pick to run the national carrier. As a fund manager, he refused to own shares in the airline.
"Thai Airways was a company which did not provide transparent information to investors," he said.
"Thai Airways management were not able to provide clear directions or policy to investors. Most of the big funds, whether in Thailand or outside Thailand, stayed away from Thai Airways stocks."
'Top three'
Mr Amranand said he had been drawn to head the airline because it was in trouble.
"I would like to see the company becoming one of the best airlines again in Asia, and the world. Maybe top three in Asia, top five in the world, within two or three years," he said.
Central to this success, he said, was reducing political interference in the day to day running of the airline, which is majority owned by the state.
He said one of the most serious problems was nepotism and favouritism in promotions and in the awarding of contracts.
"When you promote people who have connections but no ability, initially it's okay, but eventually it weakens the company, Mr Amranand said.
"It reduces the quality of the work. That is what has happened to Thai Airways
( Congratulations IU, very well done on the NTSB release!)
BBC NEWS | Business | New president raps Thai Airways
The new president of Thai Airways has strongly criticised political interference in his airline.
Mr Amranand slammed favouritism at his airlineThailand's loss-making national carrier continues to struggle with enormous pressure from outside, Piyasvasti Amranand told the BBC.
The newly appointed head of Thai Airways was in London on a global road show to gather investor support.
"The management had not really been allowed to manage the company," Mr Amranand said in an unusually frank interview.
"The company had been interfered heavily by the board, by the politicians. That had substantially weakened the management of the company, and our response to the crisis."
Restructuring
He has been the airline's president for just four weeks. Mr Amranand said it had taken months of negotiations to secure a strong enough mandate for his new job.
On Monday, the state-owned carrier reported a net loss of $121m (£71.8m) for the July-to-September quarter.
The results were worse than analysts had expected. They forecast another loss in the fourth quarter, traditionally high season for tourism.
Thai Airways is currently overhauling its management and business operations after reporting a record loss in the last three months of 2008.
Mr Amranand seems an unusual pick to run the national carrier. As a fund manager, he refused to own shares in the airline.
"Thai Airways was a company which did not provide transparent information to investors," he said.
"Thai Airways management were not able to provide clear directions or policy to investors. Most of the big funds, whether in Thailand or outside Thailand, stayed away from Thai Airways stocks."
'Top three'
Mr Amranand said he had been drawn to head the airline because it was in trouble.
"I would like to see the company becoming one of the best airlines again in Asia, and the world. Maybe top three in Asia, top five in the world, within two or three years," he said.
Central to this success, he said, was reducing political interference in the day to day running of the airline, which is majority owned by the state.
He said one of the most serious problems was nepotism and favouritism in promotions and in the awarding of contracts.
"When you promote people who have connections but no ability, initially it's okay, but eventually it weakens the company, Mr Amranand said.
"It reduces the quality of the work. That is what has happened to Thai Airways
Last edited by ChristySweet; 19th Dec 2009 at 11:46. Reason: decrease font
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Bonehead statement
@Mile Hi
I doubt -- in fact I am sure -- the SLF of OG269 do not agree with your statement to get a life. 90 killed and 45 injured, many very seriously, and traumatized.
Or did you forget that passengers typically value their own lives?
I doubt -- in fact I am sure -- the SLF of OG269 do not agree with your statement to get a life. 90 killed and 45 injured, many very seriously, and traumatized.
Or did you forget that passengers typically value their own lives?
