United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
to me it's simple.
The captain has the last say in the air.
On the ground the company has the last say.
We (the rest of us) are just guessing what we would have done both in the air and on the ground.
The captain has the last say in the air.
On the ground the company has the last say.
We (the rest of us) are just guessing what we would have done both in the air and on the ground.
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The captain has the last say in the air.
On the ground the company has the last say.
On the ground the company has the last say.
Landing at MIA, as oposed to MCO (as per FO advice), or better yet continuing to ORD, over what seems to have been a disagreement with the purser, does not sound very cost effective.
Based on the "facts" so far, I seriously doubt that the company will entrust any more of their aircraft to this guy.
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Doesn't sound to me as if the flight was in any physical danger, or likely to be so. Diverting the flight if there are unruly passengers causing a physical threat is one thing - and rare. Insisting on diverting because of a personal issue with cabin staff, where the main threat is to the paperwork...seems a ridiculous overreaction. This is not the behaviour of a rational captain in sober command of his senses; it's Basil Fawlty attacking his car with a tree.
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The captain knew when he made his decision to land at MIA to get the purser who wouldn't follow his legal command orders he had to defend that decision. It must have been a defendable reason so he was probably right. Obviously the purser would not follow his instructions so he felt she could not be trusted to listen to his orders in an emergency. He chose this to flying with someone he could not count on. Any other reason would not be defendable.
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Difficult to judge without being there but diversion was a poor decision.Time to throw the book is after landing with passengers deplaned.Once airborne,you owe it to yourself,your crew and passengers to remain totally unflappable.
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I have dealt with out of control pursers and always made it to destination but some captains choose to make an example out of their insubordination and do something like this captain did. I am sure the purser will get some counseling on this one. It cost the company a lot of money. If the captain was wrong, he will get the same.
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leadership
It takes an exceptional personality to be a leader.
I expect pilots are trained in leadership and management to kill egomania and trust they know to manage their teams with EQ and IQ. Presidents/CEO's/surgeons/pilots need to be psychologically and intellectually excellent to have lives and fortunes entrusted to them. Real leaders live this as a personal philosophy........training notwithstanding.
From all accounts, this captain deserves to be fired.
It seems, unfortunately, he did not have the leadership/managerial skills to deal with the situation........
I expect pilots are trained in leadership and management to kill egomania and trust they know to manage their teams with EQ and IQ. Presidents/CEO's/surgeons/pilots need to be psychologically and intellectually excellent to have lives and fortunes entrusted to them. Real leaders live this as a personal philosophy........training notwithstanding.
From all accounts, this captain deserves to be fired.
It seems, unfortunately, he did not have the leadership/managerial skills to deal with the situation........
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mmm
The Purser of flight 842 was female. The Captain of the flight wanted the general declaration so he could add his signature to it. The Purser was not in a position to grab another flight attendant right at that moment to monitor the area so the gen dec could be passed through the cockpit door. The situation escalated.
A question regarding the above paragraph.
Am i right in understanding that a rule exists whereby a Flight Attendant MUST be present to monitor the area while another F/A passes something, in this case a general declaration, through the cockpit door?
A question regarding the above paragraph.
Am i right in understanding that a rule exists whereby a Flight Attendant MUST be present to monitor the area while another F/A passes something, in this case a general declaration, through the cockpit door?
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lomapaseo
I hacked into the system and gave you access to the private CC forum:-
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/381...-aircraft.html
(Not really - the CC forum isn't private
)
Less fuss being made by the CC than there is by the pilots. Strange?
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/381...-aircraft.html
(Not really - the CC forum isn't private
)Less fuss being made by the CC than there is by the pilots. Strange?
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It must have been a defendable reason so he was probably right. Obviously the purser would not follow his instructions so he felt she could not be trusted to listen to his orders in an emergency. He chose this to flying with someone he could not count on. Any other reason would not be defendable.
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I know beancounters are detested here, but how much did this diversion into MIA cost United? There would have been a landing fee, perhaps the MIA per passenger departure fee as well, the cost of additional fuel, and whatever charges and fees were levied by the airline whose gate and services were used to disembark the offending purser (United not having a station in Miami).
According to the New England Journal of Medicine, the cost of a medical diversion can run from $3,000 to $100,000 (in 2002 dollars). Airlines are charging disruptive passengers for the cost of having to divert the flight and toss them off the plane, and the chaege is running in the tens of thousands of $. From a precedent standpoint, United would be ill-advised to indicate that this diversion was at little or no cost, given the precedent that might carry when they try collecting in the future from a disruptive passenger.
According to the New England Journal of Medicine, the cost of a medical diversion can run from $3,000 to $100,000 (in 2002 dollars). Airlines are charging disruptive passengers for the cost of having to divert the flight and toss them off the plane, and the chaege is running in the tens of thousands of $. From a precedent standpoint, United would be ill-advised to indicate that this diversion was at little or no cost, given the precedent that might carry when they try collecting in the future from a disruptive passenger.
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Hang on a minute, for all those saying "the Captain's word is final", you are quite wrong with that.
It is unlawful to refuse a REASONABLE order by the Commander of an aircraft.
In this case, from the evidence supplied, the Captain decided that as his request for the Gendec was not immediately acted upon then this was an act of insubordination and hence a flight safety danger.
What utter tosh.
Ask yourself this, if an F/O had commanded a G/A on an unstable approach flown by the Capt, would they then be offloaded, as clearly they are also insubordinate ?
It is unlawful to refuse a REASONABLE order by the Commander of an aircraft.
In this case, from the evidence supplied, the Captain decided that as his request for the Gendec was not immediately acted upon then this was an act of insubordination and hence a flight safety danger.
What utter tosh.
Ask yourself this, if an F/O had commanded a G/A on an unstable approach flown by the Capt, would they then be offloaded, as clearly they are also insubordinate ?
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It was alleged earlier in this thread the captain was on extended sick leave. Perhaps he needs another extended period of sick leave until his 65th birthday. Who knows, perhaps this guy was a time bomb waiting to explode and the Relief and First Officers were either afraid to disagree with this nut job, or just happy to see this particular legend in his own mind off loaded too.
Could you imagine if this wonder boy was carrying a piece as a FFDO? I would hate to imagine the consequences when the Purser brought the Gen Dec into the cockpit.
Could you imagine if this wonder boy was carrying a piece as a FFDO? I would hate to imagine the consequences when the Purser brought the Gen Dec into the cockpit.
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Seems to me it's a bit over the top to divert, I would have thought sending the relevant cabin crew member to work at the rear of the aircraft as far away from the cockpit as possible. If she was the Chief Purser then designate the second in charge to take charge etc.
Best I ever witnessed when a cabin crew was extremely disrespectful to the Captain (this was on ground before departure), the Captain instructed the CC to call crew control & get herself replaced
She had to explain to crew control why she was making the call etc
Best I ever witnessed when a cabin crew was extremely disrespectful to the Captain (this was on ground before departure), the Captain instructed the CC to call crew control & get herself replaced
She had to explain to crew control why she was making the call etc
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An airliner made an unscheduled landing. Other than that, what are the true , known, FACTS?
Until further information is revealed, why comment?
In any case, as an airline Captain, I will give the benefit of doubt to the Captain until the FACTS prove him wrong.
Until further information is revealed, why comment?
In any case, as an airline Captain, I will give the benefit of doubt to the Captain until the FACTS prove him wrong.