United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My interpretation, is not a KISS version. It is a "Canadian Air Regulation" version.
I asked the question, because, the aviation rules of our two countries are usually very similar.
In Canada (at least at our Airline) Dispatch reverts to "Flight Watch," once Airborne. Also, individual "Flight Operations Manuals" are approved by the regulator. As such, each Carrier could use their respective "Dispatch Operation" differently. As long as they get regulatory approval.
..not sure about the USA.
Frankly, I am surprised by the FAA version. I fully agree with you Cactusdriver, in practical terms.
However, sticking to the topic of the thread, on whether you need Dispatches concurrence to divert?
Under the Canadian rules, Dispatch is there for me (..as a tool to aid in a safe decision,) but the final decision rests with the PIC.
I asked the question, because, the aviation rules of our two countries are usually very similar.
In Canada (at least at our Airline) Dispatch reverts to "Flight Watch," once Airborne. Also, individual "Flight Operations Manuals" are approved by the regulator. As such, each Carrier could use their respective "Dispatch Operation" differently. As long as they get regulatory approval.
..not sure about the USA.
Frankly, I am surprised by the FAA version. I fully agree with you Cactusdriver, in practical terms.
However, sticking to the topic of the thread, on whether you need Dispatches concurrence to divert?
Under the Canadian rules, Dispatch is there for me (..as a tool to aid in a safe decision,) but the final decision rests with the PIC.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My initial enquiry on Dispatch was in terms of re-dispatch, not the decision to divert in the first place which undeniably lies in the cockpit. Certainly in the UK it is not unusual to take 'advice' from ground staff on the choice of a diversion where time is not presiing.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Senior Dispatcher
You rock! You KNOW your "stuff" vs. spouting opinions. I know that w/UA dispatch is involved before a flight takes off to when it safely lands. No capt., however, great he thinks he is can do it w/o dispatch. Thanks for sharing pure, unadulterated facts!! Rainboe and the rest of your ego bloated trolls...take note!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"unadulterated" facts? Hmmmm. I seem to recall that you posted a rather colourful desciption of the Captain, concerning a strike that took place in 1985.
Although the moderators saw fit to delete it, it is a shame because it highlighted your "unadulterated" agenda perhaps?
So clearly "You Rock!" as well, or certainly the pedestal you are shouting from, appears to.
Although the moderators saw fit to delete it, it is a shame because it highlighted your "unadulterated" agenda perhaps?
So clearly "You Rock!" as well, or certainly the pedestal you are shouting from, appears to.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
based on facts
With respect, you can't have it both ways. You seem to be exhibiting the traits in real time of which you accuse the Captain, without facts. I don't know your position, but I'm hoping it isn't in aviation, and hopefully not with my company if you are. You are volatile rather than patient, resentful rather than accepting, and lack the grace of a true professional. I experienced the strike, and until now hadn't run into anyone so bitter as a result of events that occurred 24 years ago. I wish you well. I hope you overcome your apparent insecurities with your employment.
Will
With respect, you can't have it both ways. You seem to be exhibiting the traits in real time of which you accuse the Captain, without facts. I don't know your position, but I'm hoping it isn't in aviation, and hopefully not with my company if you are. You are volatile rather than patient, resentful rather than accepting, and lack the grace of a true professional. I experienced the strike, and until now hadn't run into anyone so bitter as a result of events that occurred 24 years ago. I wish you well. I hope you overcome your apparent insecurities with your employment.
Will
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually Will, I must make one correction regarding your rant. I CAN accusse the captain...I was there , I witnessed actions on both the captains and Purser's part; therefore, I have every right to make an accusation vs. those of you who don't LISTEN/READ to the facts spend endless hours speculating 
. Personally, I don't have hours to spend on mere speculation but, I'm more than willing to contribute/share what I do know, as I was there. I don't need/want it both ways. I know what happened and I'm just fine with that. As far as the strike goes, that seems to be boggy territory. I stated fact...again, it was food for thought and something to consider in the big picture. It is a part of the picture that our pilots still factor. 'nuff said
. Personally, I don't have hours to spend on mere speculation but, I'm more than willing to contribute/share what I do know, as I was there. I don't need/want it both ways. I know what happened and I'm just fine with that. As far as the strike goes, that seems to be boggy territory. I stated fact...again, it was food for thought and something to consider in the big picture. It is a part of the picture that our pilots still factor. 'nuff said
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, but you signed up for this forum simply to tell everyone who will listen or read, your version of the events. These are the "facts" as you see them. It is certainly interesting to hear something from somebody who was a witness to an unusual and newsworthy event. What is perhaps a little odd is your aggresive and rude stance to others who post. You have posted some 13 posts so far in this thread with little more than insult and some rather unpleasant name calling, of both the subject Captain and contributors to this thread.
No doubt you made your complaint through the company channels, and no doubt they didn't expect you to sign up to a bulletin board to deliver your verdict on their decision or ongoing investigation?
This is a professional pilots forum, and naturally many pilots are interested that a situation such as this one has developed. It is newsworthy by virtue of the fact it is so unusual. I have to say that as an eyewitness, your responses are also somewhat unusual.
Speculation it may be, but perhaps in the coming years this will become a case study in CRM courses around the worlds airlines. Your demeanor on this thread suggests that the CRM behavioural issues went beyond simply the Captains.
No doubt you made your complaint through the company channels, and no doubt they didn't expect you to sign up to a bulletin board to deliver your verdict on their decision or ongoing investigation?
This is a professional pilots forum, and naturally many pilots are interested that a situation such as this one has developed. It is newsworthy by virtue of the fact it is so unusual. I have to say that as an eyewitness, your responses are also somewhat unusual.
Speculation it may be, but perhaps in the coming years this will become a case study in CRM courses around the worlds airlines. Your demeanor on this thread suggests that the CRM behavioural issues went beyond simply the Captains.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P.S. Will, I'm not volatile, resentful or lacking in grace. What I am is sick of self righteous pilots assuming that our Purser is to blame and not able to accept that one of their is at fault. In fact, last week I flew and our capt. thought that the capt. that made the diversion is brillant. He said that this guy had to have the whole thing planned out. He'll most likely be have a medical discharge that will enable him to collect 55% of his pay vs. what he would collect if he had a "normal" retirement. So, when all is said and done...this seems to be a cleverly executed move on his part. to bad he created havoc for everyone else involved. For others to condone his actions are way off base.
BoF could be a UAL employee, pensioner, spouse or other relative.
Likely he or she is not an employee because publishing details of personnel incidents and actions is not good for your career with any employer.
BoF was obviously offended by what he or she witnessed and seems privy to HR and FAA actions that are generally known to many UAL employees and a major topic of conversation among them.
Whatever BoF's credentials, he seems to be an eyewitness. He may have good reasons to keep his identity under wraps, as your average corporation would prefer to keep the information he has offered private.
Likely he or she is not an employee because publishing details of personnel incidents and actions is not good for your career with any employer.
BoF was obviously offended by what he or she witnessed and seems privy to HR and FAA actions that are generally known to many UAL employees and a major topic of conversation among them.
Whatever BoF's credentials, he seems to be an eyewitness. He may have good reasons to keep his identity under wraps, as your average corporation would prefer to keep the information he has offered private.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe "unadulterated" means 'without adults ..or grown ups?'
not so odd 
there has been plenty of aggression and rudeness to go around even before BOF's untimely (to some) appearance. This is not the first time a member of flight crew was kicked off a plane by a pilot.. I know of at least two incidences. In the second, the remaining stews walked of the plane and the flight was eventually canceled (anybody wanting flight number, airline etc can PM me for confirmation) - it wasn't a US carrier though.:P ...p.s. I've officially filed a Freedom of Information request for any all transcripts, recordings or statements made pursuant to the diversion of the flight. Maybe I'll get something back -
then *I* can be 'based of facts' too!
What is perhaps a little odd is your aggresive and rude stance to others who post.
there has been plenty of aggression and rudeness to go around even before BOF's untimely (to some) appearance. This is not the first time a member of flight crew was kicked off a plane by a pilot.. I know of at least two incidences. In the second, the remaining stews walked of the plane and the flight was eventually canceled (anybody wanting flight number, airline etc can PM me for confirmation) - it wasn't a US carrier though.:P ...p.s. I've officially filed a Freedom of Information request for any all transcripts, recordings or statements made pursuant to the diversion of the flight. Maybe I'll get something back - then *I* can be 'based of facts' too!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well quite a rant there 'BasedonFacts'! Hysterical, but a rant. I'm not altogether convinced about you. However, since you included me by name, please reread my postings. Far from actively defending the individual involved, I have merely explained the legal basis of such a decision and asked that he be given discretion to make his case. He, in fact, had every legal basis to make such a decision, but he knew it would be a decision he has to justify to UA. If he felt his leadership was not recognised for some reason, and it has become apparent there are some severe historical human factors problems washing around UA, then he took a possibly very valid decision to 'remove a problem'. I have known it happen in a big British Airline, though always still on the ground.
But if you were present as you claim, you could provide some answers. After the expulsion of the IFM, if you were so concerned about the Captain, why were you so happy to continue with him one more flight? Was it 'after this next flight, we will nail him and claim him to be unbalanced/wife beater/paedophile etc and really take the guy apart? How is he different now than at MIA? At MIA he was given your endorsement to continue in charge of a flight of your UA passengers and your own good self. Why did that change at ORD? Did he do a bad landing or something? You claim out of concern for your passengers, you continued. If you were truly concerned about his judgement and decision making and the possible effects on your passengers, you would have refused to continue. I don't understand what changed once you decided 'he was OK to continue, one mo' time'. I think you, if indeed you were really onboard, have a little explaining to do yourself. Perhaps you are still fighting a bizarre 24 year old battle nobody really cares about anymore.
I do find it very repellent you were happy to subject your passengers to what you allege was an unsuitable pilot for one more flight, then you jump up and down screaming he's unbalanced and unsafe and all the rest. How on earth could you subject your customers to such a 'hazard'?
But if you were present as you claim, you could provide some answers. After the expulsion of the IFM, if you were so concerned about the Captain, why were you so happy to continue with him one more flight? Was it 'after this next flight, we will nail him and claim him to be unbalanced/wife beater/paedophile etc and really take the guy apart? How is he different now than at MIA? At MIA he was given your endorsement to continue in charge of a flight of your UA passengers and your own good self. Why did that change at ORD? Did he do a bad landing or something? You claim out of concern for your passengers, you continued. If you were truly concerned about his judgement and decision making and the possible effects on your passengers, you would have refused to continue. I don't understand what changed once you decided 'he was OK to continue, one mo' time'. I think you, if indeed you were really onboard, have a little explaining to do yourself. Perhaps you are still fighting a bizarre 24 year old battle nobody really cares about anymore.
I do find it very repellent you were happy to subject your passengers to what you allege was an unsuitable pilot for one more flight, then you jump up and down screaming he's unbalanced and unsafe and all the rest. How on earth could you subject your customers to such a 'hazard'?
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Just joined!
Age: 58
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would a seemingly trivial altercation with a Purser over a Gen Dec be reason to divert an aircraft?
As for the behavior of this captain, on the surface, it appears that all his oars were definitely not in the water
Instead he chose to blow his top over a trifle. Glad I wasn't on that plane.
Just off sick leave perhaps this captain's buttons more easily pressed by a carefully difficult purser. Subtle insubordination is a practiced artform with some crew unfortunately.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An example of the damage these spiteful human factors and malicious behaviour can have is hot off the press:
Hero BA pilot who crash-landed jet and saved 151 lives quits over 'smear campaign' | Mail Online
Only a pilot who can understand the severe pressures that arose in an instant can truly appreciate the enormity of what happened. That the pilots were subject to such a 'whispering' campaign is, indeed, a tragedy. That it seems to have succeeded makes it even worse. Companies have a moral obligation to ensure that such bad feelings are not allowed to continue and fester. BA never attempted to stop it, UA appear to have done little to ensure the future was not poisoned, as evidenced by the rantings of BasedonFacts! The outcome is people who just decide they aren't going to put up with such garbage anymore, even if their employer is happy to. The more I hear, the more it seems to me the Captain has a case to be heard.
Hero BA pilot who crash-landed jet and saved 151 lives quits over 'smear campaign' | Mail Online
Only a pilot who can understand the severe pressures that arose in an instant can truly appreciate the enormity of what happened. That the pilots were subject to such a 'whispering' campaign is, indeed, a tragedy. That it seems to have succeeded makes it even worse. Companies have a moral obligation to ensure that such bad feelings are not allowed to continue and fester. BA never attempted to stop it, UA appear to have done little to ensure the future was not poisoned, as evidenced by the rantings of BasedonFacts! The outcome is people who just decide they aren't going to put up with such garbage anymore, even if their employer is happy to. The more I hear, the more it seems to me the Captain has a case to be heard.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pardon me for piping up purely as a passenger, but on balance I'm probably with the captain. I'd rather the captain's emotions were looked after and the captain had as low-stress a flight experience as possible, than anyone else on board, regardless of "right" or "wrong". Minutiae about who is to blame should be set aside I would have thought. Cabin crew can please leave resentments of all kinds at the door and practice some upward management!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is amazing how everyone wants 'in on' the decisions from the Flight Deck.
However, having spent many years doing "Pilot Association" business I can assure you.
Everyone scatters like cockroaches when it comes time to hang someone out to blame.
All fingers miraculously point at the:
Pilot In Command
However, having spent many years doing "Pilot Association" business I can assure you.
Everyone scatters like cockroaches when it comes time to hang someone out to blame.
All fingers miraculously point at the:
Pilot In Command
