Britten-Norman Islander Ditching off Bonaire
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As one who has flown quite a few hours in the Islander (long nose) I can tell you there is no way you will be able to maintain altitude on one engine loaded with pax in the back. When doing flight checks on single engine with just the pilot and examiner we could hardly get it to climb on one engine. Granted this particular Islander had worse performance than others, mostly due to the long nose.
I also had the misfortune of losing an engine (in the Bahamas) on a C401 with only two passengers. The engine seized and the prop would not feather. We were losing 300'/min all the way down from 9000' to MSL. As previously said, believing that second engine will save you in a GA aircraft is only fooling yourself.
Sad story, RIP Caribbean flyer.
I also had the misfortune of losing an engine (in the Bahamas) on a C401 with only two passengers. The engine seized and the prop would not feather. We were losing 300'/min all the way down from 9000' to MSL. As previously said, believing that second engine will save you in a GA aircraft is only fooling yourself.
Sad story, RIP Caribbean flyer.
Last edited by FlyTCI; 25th Oct 2009 at 00:59.
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While on the subject, adding another engine didn't make much difference. A Trislander suffered an engine failure on take-off at Jersey. What happened was this (AAIB report, my italics, the aircraft was 23 KG over MTOW)..
In the discussion of the incident....(my italics)
Good for him, and he deserved a medal. The investigators concluded the extra 23Kg had no significant effect on performance.
Can anyone explain why the CAA allows(ed) these B-N products to be certificated for Public Transport operations?
At this time (about 200', after completing post take-off checks) the pilot observed that the left engine had failed and so he feathered the propeller on that engine and increased to maximum power on the remaining two engines. The pitch of the aircraft was adjusted to maintain a target speed of 80 kt, the recommended speed after the shutdown of an engine. The pilot was unable to climb and he elected to make a landing on a beach which was ahead of the nose of the aircraft.
If the pilot does not react quickly to an engine failure of this type a yaw will develop which will degrade the climb performance. A factor to be considered is that during training a pilot will be anticipating a failure and will normally react more quickly than would be the case during a line flight where there would be a large element of surprise. The southerly wind gave rise to some turbulence which can also degrade performance.A combination of these factors left the pilot in a situation where he had no confidence in the capability of the aircraft to achieve a climb and so he elected for what he felt to be the safest option, which was a precautionary landing on the beach.
Can anyone explain why the CAA allows(ed) these B-N products to be certificated for Public Transport operations?
Last edited by Capot; 25th Oct 2009 at 10:45.
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I too have worked with Rob. A keen and capable lad, and a sad loss.
Having had to carry out C.of A. annual performance tests where the aircraft starts a 5 min timed climb on one engine from 3000 ft. under controlled conditions, recording altitude gained and other parameters, I can assure all that there is not much excess performance in tropical conditions. On two engines they are a STOL performer out of short strips, but you had better have a contingency plan if you are to survive if one stops at a critical time or place when you have a full load in warmish temperatures. Of the aircraft I have flown, I have had full and partial engine failures for real in Islanders more than the other types, but luckily they either happened when I was in cruise, or at lighter weights.
They complement Twin Otters in remote operations and short overwater sectors, and are irreplaceable in some operations for providing frequency to smaller ports. That explains why some have been used for 35 years and more and are very high time airframes.
As far as trying to ditch an Islander without casualties, the only one of which I have first hand knowledge, resulted in all 11 (that included infants) on board perishing. Nothing was ever found.
So if Rob had to ditch, he did well to have all the passenger survive.
Vale Rob, I thought you might have gone far, you tried, but now your journey is different.
Having had to carry out C.of A. annual performance tests where the aircraft starts a 5 min timed climb on one engine from 3000 ft. under controlled conditions, recording altitude gained and other parameters, I can assure all that there is not much excess performance in tropical conditions. On two engines they are a STOL performer out of short strips, but you had better have a contingency plan if you are to survive if one stops at a critical time or place when you have a full load in warmish temperatures. Of the aircraft I have flown, I have had full and partial engine failures for real in Islanders more than the other types, but luckily they either happened when I was in cruise, or at lighter weights.
They complement Twin Otters in remote operations and short overwater sectors, and are irreplaceable in some operations for providing frequency to smaller ports. That explains why some have been used for 35 years and more and are very high time airframes.
As far as trying to ditch an Islander without casualties, the only one of which I have first hand knowledge, resulted in all 11 (that included infants) on board perishing. Nothing was ever found.
So if Rob had to ditch, he did well to have all the passenger survive.
Vale Rob, I thought you might have gone far, you tried, but now your journey is different.
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It sounds rather ironical, what B-N say on their website, promoting the Islander:
Strength and safety
- [...]
- Twin-engine power for enhanced safety in all types of operation
- Exceptional low-speed and single-engine handling
- [...]
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frigatebird, i was trying to get in contact with you yesterday but your PM/email is disabled.
I got the sad news about Rob yesterday from one of the fellas still in HIR.
don't suppose you have an email address you can PM me some time for any future chat??
it's hard to believe Rob has gone...
He was king of the Karaoke on a Friday night at the KingSol.
Raise a glass and remember the good times we shared.
I got the sad news about Rob yesterday from one of the fellas still in HIR.
don't suppose you have an email address you can PM me some time for any future chat??
it's hard to believe Rob has gone...
He was king of the Karaoke on a Friday night at the KingSol.
Raise a glass and remember the good times we shared.
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frigatebird & MYNameIS
fellas...appears to me u guys are the only ones on this thread that actually knew him...i knew his aswell.we trained toghether in aus and i spoke to him on msn just after he got his atp...i still cant belive hes gone..i know for sure that what ever he chose to do was the for the best, and the facts prove him.
just wanted to share my sorrow with u fellas.ciao roberto,will miss u and will never forget u.
just wanted to share my sorrow with u fellas.ciao roberto,will miss u and will never forget u.
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I have never flown an Islander but I have had engine failures in light twins (C404 and Aztec) at MTOW and simply cannot agree that the second engine "takes you to the accident" in general terms (as I say, it may be true of the Islander but it is definitively not true of most MEPs.)
Of course there are circumstances of double emergency (such as failure to feather, a problem on the other engine and so on) but it is quite wrong to paint a single engine failure in an MEP as a disaster waiting to happen.
Speaking as someone with many decades, and quite a few thousand hours, on MEPs I was as surprised as anyone else about this ditching.
Of course there are circumstances of double emergency (such as failure to feather, a problem on the other engine and so on) but it is quite wrong to paint a single engine failure in an MEP as a disaster waiting to happen.
Speaking as someone with many decades, and quite a few thousand hours, on MEPs I was as surprised as anyone else about this ditching.
Last edited by Heliport; 26th Oct 2009 at 21:12.
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Timothy
A good result for you and I am very very pleased it worked out for you. However I would say that it was a brave decision you made flying a heavy mep on one engine past several airports, over a very congested city, to get to your maintenance base. I would have ventured that 'land at the nearest suitable airfield' was never a more appropriate phrase.
But as I say well done
SK
A good result for you and I am very very pleased it worked out for you. However I would say that it was a brave decision you made flying a heavy mep on one engine past several airports, over a very congested city, to get to your maintenance base. I would have ventured that 'land at the nearest suitable airfield' was never a more appropriate phrase.
But as I say well done
SK
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Does the islander have shoulder harness?
There is at least one (fatal) accident report that I have read where it said that if the deceased pilot had worn the shoulder harness he probably would have survived.
Guy's remember: if you are going down, strap in, takes only half a second, but could save your live!
There is at least one (fatal) accident report that I have read where it said that if the deceased pilot had worn the shoulder harness he probably would have survived.
Guy's remember: if you are going down, strap in, takes only half a second, but could save your live!
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Uncannily silverknapper has mentioned the very point I logged in to comment on, whether or not the second engine was doing any good.
In 1996 an Islander, VH-HIA, made a forced landing on a beach on the Gold Coast in Queensland. The initial report is here, afraid I can't find the final one but I'm sure someone will come up with it.
ASN Aircraft accident Britten-Norman BN-2A-21*Islander VH-HIA Currumbin, QLD
While making no assumptions as to what happened in the Bonaire case I do know a little about the Australian one. One of the engines on VH-HIA had a history of surging and I know this because at that time I worked for the company who maintained it and were trying to track down the cause. Just about every component was changed in trying to cure it but the fault would re-occur. On the night of the accident it happened again, the pilot told me that it was causing such a violent yaw he opted to shut it down only to find that despite his best efforts (and having flown with him I can vouch for his skills) the aircraft would not maintain altitude.
He set about re-starting the offending engine but found himself running out of room so opted to make a forced landing on the beach. There was little light and he could only aim for the luminescence created by the surf breaking (he was over a built-up area with no hope of going elsewhere). All went well until, just a few feet above the sand, a wingtip struck the only rock for miles causing both wings to snap off. The fuselage, complete with passengers, dropped the last few feet into the water and rolled onto it's side. Although initially stunned he came to under water and released himself before, depsite having several broken ribs, dragging several passengers clear. Fortunately this occurred right outside a surf club where the police were having a party and so there was plenty of help on hand. All the passengers survived.
During the subsequent enquiry it was noted that company SOP's for an in-flight restart was 'everything forward', throttle, pitch and mixture and while this worked well on a carburetted engine this company had a mixed fleet which included some aircraft with fuel injected engines which flooded under those settings.
Apologies for the long story and, perhaps, thread drift but I think this case is worth considering.
In 1996 an Islander, VH-HIA, made a forced landing on a beach on the Gold Coast in Queensland. The initial report is here, afraid I can't find the final one but I'm sure someone will come up with it.
ASN Aircraft accident Britten-Norman BN-2A-21*Islander VH-HIA Currumbin, QLD
While making no assumptions as to what happened in the Bonaire case I do know a little about the Australian one. One of the engines on VH-HIA had a history of surging and I know this because at that time I worked for the company who maintained it and were trying to track down the cause. Just about every component was changed in trying to cure it but the fault would re-occur. On the night of the accident it happened again, the pilot told me that it was causing such a violent yaw he opted to shut it down only to find that despite his best efforts (and having flown with him I can vouch for his skills) the aircraft would not maintain altitude.
He set about re-starting the offending engine but found himself running out of room so opted to make a forced landing on the beach. There was little light and he could only aim for the luminescence created by the surf breaking (he was over a built-up area with no hope of going elsewhere). All went well until, just a few feet above the sand, a wingtip struck the only rock for miles causing both wings to snap off. The fuselage, complete with passengers, dropped the last few feet into the water and rolled onto it's side. Although initially stunned he came to under water and released himself before, depsite having several broken ribs, dragging several passengers clear. Fortunately this occurred right outside a surf club where the police were having a party and so there was plenty of help on hand. All the passengers survived.
During the subsequent enquiry it was noted that company SOP's for an in-flight restart was 'everything forward', throttle, pitch and mixture and while this worked well on a carburetted engine this company had a mixed fleet which included some aircraft with fuel injected engines which flooded under those settings.
Apologies for the long story and, perhaps, thread drift but I think this case is worth considering.
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flintstone
Know of at least one 300 hp fuel injected Islander that had to be put into a paddock because of air in the fuel lines after the pilots late decision to change tanks. Also know that while the 260 hp carburettor versions are probably more widely used, they are very prone to carburettor icing in high humidity tropical environments. There was undoubtedly more to consider than is obvious from reading these posts.
Know of at least one 300 hp fuel injected Islander that had to be put into a paddock because of air in the fuel lines after the pilots late decision to change tanks. Also know that while the 260 hp carburettor versions are probably more widely used, they are very prone to carburettor icing in high humidity tropical environments. There was undoubtedly more to consider than is obvious from reading these posts.
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Silverknapper,
That conversation was done to death at the time, but, in the context of this thread, the point is that the aircraft was behaving perfectly at MTOW to such an extent that I didn't need to panic or make hasty choices (like landing on the nearest runway) but had the leisure to work out the best diversion, taking everything into account.
I believe that it is the duty of the Captain not to follow mantras (like "land at the nearest airfield") but to make a careful judgement on all available information.
That conversation was done to death at the time, but, in the context of this thread, the point is that the aircraft was behaving perfectly at MTOW to such an extent that I didn't need to panic or make hasty choices (like landing on the nearest runway) but had the leisure to work out the best diversion, taking everything into account.
I believe that it is the duty of the Captain not to follow mantras (like "land at the nearest airfield") but to make a careful judgement on all available information.
Last edited by Timothy; 25th Oct 2009 at 23:08.
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golfyankeesierra, the shoulder harness in a BN2 only comes over one shoulder.
There is potential for the torso to slip out from only one shoulder harness (no matter what aircraft, some worse than others) depending on a few things such as the direction the decelerating force comes from (more sideways or head on) and whether or not it is correctly fitted.
A harness over both shoulders is much better.
It depends on the belt, but some of the BN2s ive been in have the shoulder belt stiched into (and thus permanently attached to) the lap belt. Other belt systems have a shoulder belt with a clip on the end that can attach to the buckle of the lap belt thus making it removeable for cruising comfort.
I prefer the permantly attached type. With properly working inertia reels.
One thing I have found strange with the Islander is that both the 260hp & 300hp versions are certified to the same MTOW.
I just hope the 260 isnt considered 'underpowered' and that the 300 was a further development and just kept to the same weights.
There is potential for the torso to slip out from only one shoulder harness (no matter what aircraft, some worse than others) depending on a few things such as the direction the decelerating force comes from (more sideways or head on) and whether or not it is correctly fitted.
A harness over both shoulders is much better.
It depends on the belt, but some of the BN2s ive been in have the shoulder belt stiched into (and thus permanently attached to) the lap belt. Other belt systems have a shoulder belt with a clip on the end that can attach to the buckle of the lap belt thus making it removeable for cruising comfort.
I prefer the permantly attached type. With properly working inertia reels.
One thing I have found strange with the Islander is that both the 260hp & 300hp versions are certified to the same MTOW.
I just hope the 260 isnt considered 'underpowered' and that the 300 was a further development and just kept to the same weights.
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Four bladed prop
When I had a look at the You Tube video-Tribute to PJ-SUN ( which was the aircraft that Robert Manselle was flying at the time) you can clearly see that this Islander had 4 blades fitted to each propeller. Does anyone know why this was done as most Islanders that I've seen have two bladed props??
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I've been flying on Aurigy trilanders for 15 years to Alderney from Southamptom and have often wondered how they would perform with an engine failure. From memory a couple of years ago an engine failed cruising out above the needles in the cruise and the aircraft returned to Southampton - a complete non-event. But a hot day, failure on take off makes me wonder, although presumably there is no way the plane would have a Public Transport CofA if there was any doubt about single engine performance.
Saturdays Daily Mail - International Edition ( that well known organ of accurate aviation reporting) quotes the father of the pilot as saying that his son apparently regularly complained to him that he had to fly with the plane overloaded with passengers or baggage. Could that really happen, would a pilot allow commercial pressure from "management" to affect W & B safety envelopes & decision making ?
LF
Saturdays Daily Mail - International Edition ( that well known organ of accurate aviation reporting) quotes the father of the pilot as saying that his son apparently regularly complained to him that he had to fly with the plane overloaded with passengers or baggage. Could that really happen, would a pilot allow commercial pressure from "management" to affect W & B safety envelopes & decision making ?
LF
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Hope this article provides comfort to those who knew Captain Mansell.
'Hero' Pilot Robert Mansell Dies After Saving Passengers
'Hero' Pilot Robert Mansell Dies After Saving Passengers