Britten-Norman Islander Ditching off Bonaire
Ventus 45, if you do a search for all crashes in the ATSB online database for that year (1996), you will find the same as I did: only accidents involving fatalities are available online (25 in total) with one exception, an accident to a larger aircraft (a Dash-8). That must be why you can´t find what you were looking for.
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I don't know anything about the 4-blade mods to Islanders. Certainly interesting.
The new ones come out with 3 blades it seems.
LateFinals, the unfortunate reality is that in GA the commercial pressure is such that "if you don't do it, you wont have a job with us any more".
True that it is down to the PIC to not go, however it is also up to the operator to not put such pressure on their crews.
If the operator has ground staff working for them (ie not the pilot doing the check-ins), then the potential for a few kilos shaved off each passenger and even 'forgotten' bag weights every now and then is significant. I've experienced it many times. Still do. Always will.
As a side note, you could be legal yet still be overweight when it comes to using standard passenger weights. I'm glad we don't use them where i am because our average adult male passenger is probably a good 20kg heavier than what the australian authority quotes as standard. We even get a large proportion of adolescents that top the 'normal' adult male average!
The new ones come out with 3 blades it seems.
LateFinals, the unfortunate reality is that in GA the commercial pressure is such that "if you don't do it, you wont have a job with us any more".
True that it is down to the PIC to not go, however it is also up to the operator to not put such pressure on their crews.
If the operator has ground staff working for them (ie not the pilot doing the check-ins), then the potential for a few kilos shaved off each passenger and even 'forgotten' bag weights every now and then is significant. I've experienced it many times. Still do. Always will.
As a side note, you could be legal yet still be overweight when it comes to using standard passenger weights. I'm glad we don't use them where i am because our average adult male passenger is probably a good 20kg heavier than what the australian authority quotes as standard. We even get a large proportion of adolescents that top the 'normal' adult male average!
Frigatebird, mynameis and BenRimini, the word of Rob's accident got through to FTA in Brisbane(where Rob did some training) yesterday and those of us who had the pleasure of working and socialising with him are gutted.
The world has lost a good one. Rest well Rob.
The world has lost a good one. Rest well Rob.
Pax Weights
I was paying for fuel at Wings Field, PA many, many years ago when they were operating a Trilander shuttle to PHL.
I overheard the check-in staff asking the pax for personal weight
I overheard the check-in staff asking the pax for personal weight
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Re Robert Mansell (RIP)
He appears to be a Hero and did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
My old company use to operate three BN2A Aircraft 2 in the UK and 1 in the Sudan (operating Sole use contract)
All 3 were 260 HP engined and although I am not a Pilot I do know the Crews use to call them the Streamlined Brick.
Our 3 A/C GAXXH s/n 144 GBNEA s/n 206 and GAZGU s/n 677 I seem to remember were modified to MTOW 2994 Kilos by a mod to the leading Edge between the Engine and the fuselage they also had the extended Baggage Mod in the back which meant you could carry even more bags, I cannot remember how this effected the C of G on 1 Engine
I also think with a full Pax load and a resonable amount of Baggage we could carry approx 60 IG of fuel which would take your approx 1 H 20 mins so I Cannot Imagine PJ SUN would have had a Weight Problem as it did not have De Icing which ours did again I dont know
Could I please verify the following points re the Threads
They refer to the particular A/C as a Long Nosed Islander.
I dont think it was. I admit it had a pointed nose which was the same size as the original but just pointed to streamline it I Assume.I know the Defender has a long nose (A Tri landers I assume)
I Think the 4 Bladed Prop was a mod brought out by the USA anthough I dont think it was certified by the UK (Not sure)
I also noticed I Think on the U Tube Tribute to Rob that who ever was flying PJ SUN was not wearing his Diaganol Seat Belt which was a point asked in one of the Threads.
On the BN" s we operated the front passenger has to Exit the Aircarft via the Pilots door after he disembarked Again Maybe I am wrong
Anyhow we can debate all night it wont Bring a Hero Back to us
Rob a True Hero R I P he died a Hero and I hope there will be something to Remember him in the future and not let hime be forgotten.
I only hope something good will come out in the Accident report which will prevent another young Hero being taken from us so Young,
He appears to be a Hero and did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
My old company use to operate three BN2A Aircraft 2 in the UK and 1 in the Sudan (operating Sole use contract)
All 3 were 260 HP engined and although I am not a Pilot I do know the Crews use to call them the Streamlined Brick.
Our 3 A/C GAXXH s/n 144 GBNEA s/n 206 and GAZGU s/n 677 I seem to remember were modified to MTOW 2994 Kilos by a mod to the leading Edge between the Engine and the fuselage they also had the extended Baggage Mod in the back which meant you could carry even more bags, I cannot remember how this effected the C of G on 1 Engine
I also think with a full Pax load and a resonable amount of Baggage we could carry approx 60 IG of fuel which would take your approx 1 H 20 mins so I Cannot Imagine PJ SUN would have had a Weight Problem as it did not have De Icing which ours did again I dont know
Could I please verify the following points re the Threads
They refer to the particular A/C as a Long Nosed Islander.
I dont think it was. I admit it had a pointed nose which was the same size as the original but just pointed to streamline it I Assume.I know the Defender has a long nose (A Tri landers I assume)
I Think the 4 Bladed Prop was a mod brought out by the USA anthough I dont think it was certified by the UK (Not sure)
I also noticed I Think on the U Tube Tribute to Rob that who ever was flying PJ SUN was not wearing his Diaganol Seat Belt which was a point asked in one of the Threads.
On the BN" s we operated the front passenger has to Exit the Aircarft via the Pilots door after he disembarked Again Maybe I am wrong
Anyhow we can debate all night it wont Bring a Hero Back to us
Rob a True Hero R I P he died a Hero and I hope there will be something to Remember him in the future and not let hime be forgotten.
I only hope something good will come out in the Accident report which will prevent another young Hero being taken from us so Young,
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W&B
Firstly, condolences to the pilot in this. Maybe he could not squeeze himself out of the quite narrow door ?
Sorry for barging in, when I flew on a couple of BN2 in Philippines, they didn't just ask the passenger's weight, they made sure the passenger stood on the weighing scale, loudly screaming "BODY WEIGHT PLEASE" (and that did make some embarrassing moments for some of the female natives who insisted that they were 50 plus kg, and turned out to be 60 plus kg when weighed) .. and when the 8th and last passenger walked in, the check in crew gave the option to the last passenger - "either you fly or the bags fly, but not both" even though the bags were just 15 KG.
Later, when I asked the pilot, he said that his company has a few policies - 1) twin pilot operation, 2) never exceed the max weight, even by a KG, and keep the weight much below the max weight.
The reason he said was as highlighted by the others - at full load, the BN tends to loose altitude, and since they do about 30 to 40 minutes sectors over water, heading to far away islands, being below weight helps to stretch the performance, in case of engine failure, instead of letting the working engine just take the plane to the 'scene of the crash'.
And the other operators of BN2 in that area all had the same mentality, and refusing to load up 'urgent' cargo, destined for the islands, and even refusing the offer of money when on another instance a passenger wanted to fly urgently and pilot refused due to the weight of previously loaded cargo meant they had to keep one seat empty
And once, I saw a gaggle of 4 BN2s in the rural airport I was flying out of.
Fly safe - always.
I was paying for fuel at Wings Field, PA many, many years ago when they were operating a Trilander shuttle to PHL. I overheard the check-in staff asking the pax for personal weight
Later, when I asked the pilot, he said that his company has a few policies - 1) twin pilot operation, 2) never exceed the max weight, even by a KG, and keep the weight much below the max weight.
The reason he said was as highlighted by the others - at full load, the BN tends to loose altitude, and since they do about 30 to 40 minutes sectors over water, heading to far away islands, being below weight helps to stretch the performance, in case of engine failure, instead of letting the working engine just take the plane to the 'scene of the crash'.
And the other operators of BN2 in that area all had the same mentality, and refusing to load up 'urgent' cargo, destined for the islands, and even refusing the offer of money when on another instance a passenger wanted to fly urgently and pilot refused due to the weight of previously loaded cargo meant they had to keep one seat empty
And once, I saw a gaggle of 4 BN2s in the rural airport I was flying out of.
Fly safe - always.
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Went thru an Islander manual earlier.
En-route S/E performance, 3500ft ISA+15 at MTOW (2994kg) you are getting roughly a -1.5% gradient...........
It was a very rough look and might not be 100% accurate, but it gives you an indication of just how this piston may perform.
En-route S/E performance, 3500ft ISA+15 at MTOW (2994kg) you are getting roughly a -1.5% gradient...........
It was a very rough look and might not be 100% accurate, but it gives you an indication of just how this piston may perform.
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Escape knives
As I'm sure you are aware, fast jet crew usually carry at least one knife, on anr arm or shin so as to be hopefully withein reach even if the aircrew has suffered injury to an arm or leg.
While people recoil in horror at the idea of knives on passenger aircraft nowadays, a simple answer is available, from Halfords ( UK car parts stores ) of all places !
'Escape hammers' are readily available, and though lightweight, have ointed ends so as to break windscreens - not so useful on aircraft - and a masked safety knife blade designed specifically to cut trapped harnesses.
I cannot imagine any way the blade part could be used as a weapon, but I always carry one in my car ( and ensure friends have them too ) - I have tried being upside down in a car at night off an unlit country road with the sound of pouring petrol, and was shall we say keen to get out ) !
When one thinks about it, a heavy side impact on a car may well cause the seats to move together, rendering the release catches out of reach.
Such a safety knife would enable cutting an aircraft harness free; of course the things come with a simple mounting, and their position and purpose must be obvious to everyone, even after the turmoil of an accident.
Why isn't such a thing standard kit ?
When flying just before 9/11 in fairly dodgy Cessna's, the best I could do was to ensure I always had a Swiss Army or similar type knife, and a mini-torch, but I doubt this would be popular as SLF !
While people recoil in horror at the idea of knives on passenger aircraft nowadays, a simple answer is available, from Halfords ( UK car parts stores ) of all places !
'Escape hammers' are readily available, and though lightweight, have ointed ends so as to break windscreens - not so useful on aircraft - and a masked safety knife blade designed specifically to cut trapped harnesses.
I cannot imagine any way the blade part could be used as a weapon, but I always carry one in my car ( and ensure friends have them too ) - I have tried being upside down in a car at night off an unlit country road with the sound of pouring petrol, and was shall we say keen to get out ) !
When one thinks about it, a heavy side impact on a car may well cause the seats to move together, rendering the release catches out of reach.
Such a safety knife would enable cutting an aircraft harness free; of course the things come with a simple mounting, and their position and purpose must be obvious to everyone, even after the turmoil of an accident.
Why isn't such a thing standard kit ?
When flying just before 9/11 in fairly dodgy Cessna's, the best I could do was to ensure I always had a Swiss Army or similar type knife, and a mini-torch, but I doubt this would be popular as SLF !
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I thought I saw a post that suggested that the problem may not have been the seatbelt but the front of the aircraft collapsing rearwards to trap the pilot, but I can't find it now. It's a possibility, perhaps as well as a failed harness catch.
This happened when a Skyvan was ditched near Abu Dhabi, and only the pilot's considerable strength and the fact that he was a keen SCUBA diver saved him when the nose pitched down well below the water level. The panel was, in his words "in my lap" and escaping was very difficult.
I suspect that many smaller twins are not designed to protect the pilot(s) when they hit the sea, even if the speed is at the stall, and the nose would simply crumple, pushing the panel backwards. Is that the case?
This happened when a Skyvan was ditched near Abu Dhabi, and only the pilot's considerable strength and the fact that he was a keen SCUBA diver saved him when the nose pitched down well below the water level. The panel was, in his words "in my lap" and escaping was very difficult.
I suspect that many smaller twins are not designed to protect the pilot(s) when they hit the sea, even if the speed is at the stall, and the nose would simply crumple, pushing the panel backwards. Is that the case?
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I have tried being upside down in a car at night off an unlit country road with the sound of pouring petrol, and was shall we say keen to get out )
I had bought one of those cutter things but it was nowhere to be found, neither was my cellphone, which had been in the cupholder. Exactly as you've described, debris and **** had made the release latches unreachable, luckily I was able to contort and squirm upside down till I was free.
The smell of gas was everywhere, and I was glad I wasnt a smoker.
I've since made a velcro pouch which I keep the tool and a cell phone. and have it affixed to the seat belt itself. The cell is permanently wired to the car cigarette lighter to keep it charged and never leaves the car.
(if you have a cell in the US , even if its 'off contract' it can still be used to dial 911)
It was particularly sobering for me as I thought I was prepared and as it turns out, not quite enough. I've seen enough wind-tossed planes like that after hurricanes and seen the front end-crumple damage you talk about. Cramped as these cockpits already are.....
My heart goes out to his family.
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Firstly my condolences to Robert's family. They were interviewed on Sky News this morning and apparently his remains and the aircraft have not yet been recovered. I flew 260hp Islanders for over 25 years and even in near ISA conditions single engine performance is almost non-existant. On a few occasions we had to carry out SE performance checks for issue of C of A with the aircraft ballasted to within 10% of MTOW, which nessessitated a full feather of the critical engine at 500' amsl and a 5min climb to measure performance. If lucky you might get 100 fpm in still air but this required playing around with the recommended IAS to establish optimum ROC. At ISA+15 it would definitely be a drift down situation.
I agree with all the comments made by MyNameIsIs, it is essential to weigh all pax freight and baggage to prevent overloads, but unfortunately commercial pressures are always there. It is very easy to put the C of G beyond the aft limit without accurate W&B info, which will adversly effect controllability with an engine out.
I agree with all the comments made by MyNameIsIs, it is essential to weigh all pax freight and baggage to prevent overloads, but unfortunately commercial pressures are always there. It is very easy to put the C of G beyond the aft limit without accurate W&B info, which will adversly effect controllability with an engine out.
An update on 'progress' of the investigation here:
Robert Mansell Family's Plea For Body Of British Hero Pilot 'Killed' In Caribbean Island Of Bonaire | World News | Sky News
From reading the various news reports I assume there are no practical reasons why the aircraft and hopefully the pilot's body can't be recovered. After all G-BOMG was recovered in it's entirety from the seabed west of Campbeltown in a much less benevolent climate.
Robert Mansell Family's Plea For Body Of British Hero Pilot 'Killed' In Caribbean Island Of Bonaire | World News | Sky News
From reading the various news reports I assume there are no practical reasons why the aircraft and hopefully the pilot's body can't be recovered. After all G-BOMG was recovered in it's entirety from the seabed west of Campbeltown in a much less benevolent climate.
