NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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No Contact !!
Whilest returning to the Gulf from Europe a couple of years ago a company aircraft which was visual on TCAS had an extended silent moment; flying through Sofia, Istanbul, and half way across Anchora FIR in abject silence.
We were asked to try and contact them on 121.5 without joy.
I eventually got the company to send them an ACARS message to get them to pull there finger out.
No follow up by our company flight safety dept, which of course speaks wonders
We were asked to try and contact them on 121.5 without joy.
I eventually got the company to send them an ACARS message to get them to pull there finger out.
No follow up by our company flight safety dept, which of course speaks wonders
Given that landing on a taxiway presents a vastly larger risk of an accident with loss of life than just dozing off for a few minutes
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Hold at end of FMS plan?
Shouldn't they have gone into the hold at the end of the missed approach which ended the active FMS flight plan?
OR should the FMS not have disengaged if they went out of lateral nav. mode because an altitude constraint was violated?
If the FMS disengages, does the A320 AP really go SILENTLY into ALT HOLD and HDG HOLD? That seems wrong.
It could be that the planned approach had an ATC vectors interval, and that this was not subject to altitude constraints. I suppose we should look at specifying alt. or elapsed time constraints in such an FMS approach so this doesn't happen again.
OR should the FMS not have disengaged if they went out of lateral nav. mode because an altitude constraint was violated?
If the FMS disengages, does the A320 AP really go SILENTLY into ALT HOLD and HDG HOLD? That seems wrong.
It could be that the planned approach had an ATC vectors interval, and that this was not subject to altitude constraints. I suppose we should look at specifying alt. or elapsed time constraints in such an FMS approach so this doesn't happen again.
Last edited by Gegenbeispiel; 24th Oct 2009 at 12:50.
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Were the cabin crew not checking on them every 20 minutes as per most airline's SOP's? Or is this further cause for an investigation into whether Northwest can operate safely iaw their own SOP/SEP's?
In the light of 9/11 they were lucky not to be shot down. This report should make interesting reading once a full and thorough investigation has been carried out.
In the light of 9/11 they were lucky not to be shot down. This report should make interesting reading once a full and thorough investigation has been carried out.
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@Gegenbeispiel
If no arrival route in the fms, which some do by purpose, the autoflight sys switches to hadg when the fms flightplan ends (at dest).
The mode chg to HDG commes with an aural warning (klick).
If no arrival route in the fms, which some do by purpose, the autoflight sys switches to hadg when the fms flightplan ends (at dest).
The mode chg to HDG commes with an aural warning (klick).
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GlueBall
This is company SOP, major UK budget airline, proper twin jets in the 150 seat category!
Please check your facts a little better.
I have been flying for 20 years in this business, don't you think you might have a little more to learn, if you think this is ****???
This is company SOP, major UK budget airline, proper twin jets in the 150 seat category!
Please check your facts a little better.
I have been flying for 20 years in this business, don't you think you might have a little more to learn, if you think this is ****???
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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These are the only required routine pilot/cabin communications at my airline:
Prepare for departure - Before takeoff
Passing 10,000 feet in climb - chime
Prepare for landing - Top of descent
Passing 10,000 feet in descent - chime
We have no requirement at all for the cabin crew ever to contact the pilots under normal circumstances.
Some of the old INS navigation systems without a full function FMS would go into holding upon reaching the last loaded waypoint, but newer systems go into heading AFAIK.
On the A320, the FMS flight plan almost always has a discontinuity at the end of cruise. Arrival procedures usually terminate with a fix or a heading, followed by a discontinuity between enroute navigation and the approach procedure, the idea being that ATC approach control will provide vectors to the final approach course when the aircraft is in normal proximity to do so. This allows ATC to manage the flow of traffic and provide normal spacing for arrivals.
At the discontinuity point, if no further routing has been entered into the FMS, or the mode of navigation has not been changed by the pilot, the aircraft will fly the heading it was on, while reverting to heading mode from NAV mode with a chirp, and continue to fly that heading. This rarely happens. Normally before reaching that point, ATC will have issued a vector or the pilot will querry for one. If the arrival procedure ends with a heading rather than a point , not uncommon, the aircraft will fly the heading and again, the pilots will querry if further instructions are not issued before flying too long on that heading.
Generally the system works very well.
Prepare for departure - Before takeoff
Passing 10,000 feet in climb - chime
Prepare for landing - Top of descent
Passing 10,000 feet in descent - chime
We have no requirement at all for the cabin crew ever to contact the pilots under normal circumstances.
Some of the old INS navigation systems without a full function FMS would go into holding upon reaching the last loaded waypoint, but newer systems go into heading AFAIK.
On the A320, the FMS flight plan almost always has a discontinuity at the end of cruise. Arrival procedures usually terminate with a fix or a heading, followed by a discontinuity between enroute navigation and the approach procedure, the idea being that ATC approach control will provide vectors to the final approach course when the aircraft is in normal proximity to do so. This allows ATC to manage the flow of traffic and provide normal spacing for arrivals.
At the discontinuity point, if no further routing has been entered into the FMS, or the mode of navigation has not been changed by the pilot, the aircraft will fly the heading it was on, while reverting to heading mode from NAV mode with a chirp, and continue to fly that heading. This rarely happens. Normally before reaching that point, ATC will have issued a vector or the pilot will querry for one. If the arrival procedure ends with a heading rather than a point , not uncommon, the aircraft will fly the heading and again, the pilots will querry if further instructions are not issued before flying too long on that heading.
Generally the system works very well.
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We have no requirement at all for the cabin crew ever to contact the pilots under normal circumstances.
At least WE can't fall asleep - Guaranteed.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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While cabin to flight deck calls are not required, they are also not prohibited. Whenever flight attendants are concerned, they are welcome to call, though they should know the critical phases of flight and call judiciously.
The better ones also call periodically to see if we're hungry or need coffee.
The better ones also call periodically to see if we're hungry or need coffee.
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Lindbergh
Lindy had a very poor night's sleep prior to his famous flight. He did fall asleep while flying and the plane entered a descending spiral/circle...but he woke up in time.
He talked briefly with a fly. He had visions of spirits/ghosts etc. He had his hands full flying a plane without a forward view window, no autopilot and by design, not great stability. He even tried to use spirits of ammonia to keep awake without much good.
There is sort of a twilight zone in flying. Zone out...maybe after a meal. NO chatter on the radio, no bad wx to contend with.
There are many mysteries in flying yet to discover...the human one is the biggest.
He talked briefly with a fly. He had visions of spirits/ghosts etc. He had his hands full flying a plane without a forward view window, no autopilot and by design, not great stability. He even tried to use spirits of ammonia to keep awake without much good.
There is sort of a twilight zone in flying. Zone out...maybe after a meal. NO chatter on the radio, no bad wx to contend with.
There are many mysteries in flying yet to discover...the human one is the biggest.
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CVR capacity
".....One theory already being discussed among experts is that perhaps the pilots fell asleep, and, upon awakening, and knowing that the voice recorder only had a 30 minute capacity......"
The pilots wouldn't necessarily know if the ship they were in on that day had an upgraded CVR or not! Good grief!
The pilots wouldn't necessarily know if the ship they were in on that day had an upgraded CVR or not! Good grief!
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>>>I have to wonder exactly what motivates the media to cover one story but not another.
Favor? When you get that one figured out, can you give me the winning Lottery numbers for next week?
With respect to the intense media coverage, these two NWA guys have to feel like they each have a Sidewinder locked-on to their butts... Can't be a comfy feeling...
Favor? When you get that one figured out, can you give me the winning Lottery numbers for next week?
With respect to the intense media coverage, these two NWA guys have to feel like they each have a Sidewinder locked-on to their butts... Can't be a comfy feeling...
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moist...I fly for a very big airline and we don't have a twenty minute call the pilots SOP
Please don't tell me, tell your management, who clearly seem to be quite happy with taking the chance that if you and matey fall asleep, a thing like what just has happened, still won't be occuring to you lot!!! Innit?
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We used to have the 20 minutes call rule as well for a very very long time. However it vanished when cabin duties made it impossible for the cabin staff to do just that, especially on the many very short sectors we fly.
Nevertheless the cabin crew usually has a pretty good idea on the time they have for their service and check before and after with the cockpit if everything's allright, we're on time and if we need some more coffee or meals. Most of them don't bother to call and just enter the FD which is still allowed over here (dunno if it is possible in the US).
Nevertheless the cabin crew usually has a pretty good idea on the time they have for their service and check before and after with the cockpit if everything's allright, we're on time and if we need some more coffee or meals. Most of them don't bother to call and just enter the FD which is still allowed over here (dunno if it is possible in the US).
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moist
the other guys are MURCAINS.
They are exempt common sense
What we practice in Europe will require a major wake up ( 9/11 was wake up to security) before they do anything like implement our sensible precautions.
They didn't think of it y'see.
the other guys are MURCAINS.
They are exempt common sense
What we practice in Europe will require a major wake up ( 9/11 was wake up to security) before they do anything like implement our sensible precautions.
They didn't think of it y'see.
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I am amused by the people on this thread who are making excuses for this crew, or are wanting to 'avoid a rush to judgment'. Allegedly professional pilots with ~150 passengers in back overflew their destination by 100 miles. They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.
Well said!
I'm not amused; I am astounded how everyone defends these [and Delta Taxi-landing pilots] two pilots
Even both pilots are now on ‘record’ saying ‘…they were involved in a heated discussion’, but people on this board are still talking about let the ‘facts’ come out.
Yes, I have been involved in discussions at FL370 over Saskatchewan where there could be a long ‘silence’ but to not get a call for 78 minutes…and not querying, leads me, and the experts, to believe the pilots were indeed asleep! I flew over the western US that day on those altitudes and no there were no ‘freak’ winds that pushed the GS so much which totally surprised these pilots over Eau Claire.
What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.”
That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it. I guess we can say the same about Delta – and others; Continental, etc., – landing on a taxiway and since there was no catastrophe, don’t even bother doing anything.
Well said!
I'm not amused; I am astounded how everyone defends these [and Delta Taxi-landing pilots] two pilots
Even both pilots are now on ‘record’ saying ‘…they were involved in a heated discussion’, but people on this board are still talking about let the ‘facts’ come out.
Yes, I have been involved in discussions at FL370 over Saskatchewan where there could be a long ‘silence’ but to not get a call for 78 minutes…and not querying, leads me, and the experts, to believe the pilots were indeed asleep! I flew over the western US that day on those altitudes and no there were no ‘freak’ winds that pushed the GS so much which totally surprised these pilots over Eau Claire.
What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.”
That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it. I guess we can say the same about Delta – and others; Continental, etc., – landing on a taxiway and since there was no catastrophe, don’t even bother doing anything.