NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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"At one time in my career, I expected a very high level of professionalism in the cockpit. Now, having flown many years. I am surprised when I get a high level of dedication."
I couldn't agree more. As a co pilot, I did my best not deviate from the SOP's. After I became a captain, it was the exception rather than the rule for my partner to display the same dedication and shocking when they would do something that I would not even consider without asking the captain. The majority were just lazy not following SOP's; ie, failure of the PNF to fill out required enroute fuel burn, failure to make required company position reports, pireps, monitor the radar, etc.
It was night and day difference how easy my job was when I would fly with someone that actually would do his job exactly as prescribed by the SOP's. Not sure how this casual attitude developed unless they were influenced by equally lazy captains.
I couldn't agree more. As a co pilot, I did my best not deviate from the SOP's. After I became a captain, it was the exception rather than the rule for my partner to display the same dedication and shocking when they would do something that I would not even consider without asking the captain. The majority were just lazy not following SOP's; ie, failure of the PNF to fill out required enroute fuel burn, failure to make required company position reports, pireps, monitor the radar, etc.
It was night and day difference how easy my job was when I would fly with someone that actually would do his job exactly as prescribed by the SOP's. Not sure how this casual attitude developed unless they were influenced by equally lazy captains.
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I have been reading these threads with interest, as we all have. I must say that I am with FlyingOfficerKite.
I realise that in places like the USA, where there is radar coverage almost everywhere and that position reports have been consigned to history. Frequency changes for upper air space few;
Let us assume that the flight in question, once at altitude, was cleared direct to destination. What happens to all the other "house keeping" chores? For example, keeping the flight plan log up to date, time over way point and track and distance to the next way point, checking fuel on board against the flight plan, is the fuel balanced and the FMC fuel remaining matching flight plan, enroute/destination/alternate weather, and the list goes on.
Where is the basic self discipline, Captain? Time to go back to sweeping the hangar floor for you two!
I realise that in places like the USA, where there is radar coverage almost everywhere and that position reports have been consigned to history. Frequency changes for upper air space few;
Let us assume that the flight in question, once at altitude, was cleared direct to destination. What happens to all the other "house keeping" chores? For example, keeping the flight plan log up to date, time over way point and track and distance to the next way point, checking fuel on board against the flight plan, is the fuel balanced and the FMC fuel remaining matching flight plan, enroute/destination/alternate weather, and the list goes on.
Where is the basic self discipline, Captain? Time to go back to sweeping the hangar floor for you two!
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Springer1
How true I was discussing this very topic with a colleague of mine today. The attitude and lack of discipline displayed by many of my junior colleagues is shocking. They’re getting away with it by flying with equally lazy Captains.
How true I was discussing this very topic with a colleague of mine today. The attitude and lack of discipline displayed by many of my junior colleagues is shocking. They’re getting away with it by flying with equally lazy Captains.
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Well it's with great dismay that I have read the comments made by our American friends.
It does indeed seem that UK flying standards are MUCH higher than those in the USofA.
As for cabin crew visiting the flight deck every 20 minutes or so this has been de rigueur (i.e. necessary according to etiquette, common sense, protocol or fashion) for many years.
Just for the benefit of American pilots CRM stands for Crew Resource Management. It's a concept brought in in the UK over the past 15 years or so to improve safety and facilitate crew co-operation.
Maybe one day the FAA will champion a similar system of training and improve the professional standard of pilots 'over there'.
Or is it that they have and you just can't be a***d?
FOK
It does indeed seem that UK flying standards are MUCH higher than those in the USofA.
As for cabin crew visiting the flight deck every 20 minutes or so this has been de rigueur (i.e. necessary according to etiquette, common sense, protocol or fashion) for many years.
Just for the benefit of American pilots CRM stands for Crew Resource Management. It's a concept brought in in the UK over the past 15 years or so to improve safety and facilitate crew co-operation.
Maybe one day the FAA will champion a similar system of training and improve the professional standard of pilots 'over there'.
Or is it that they have and you just can't be a***d?
FOK
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Ndicho
We don't fill out fuel burns, and all the stuff you are talking about. Now, a good pilot is keeping tabs on things. And watching fuel vs. eta and all that. But we don't write things down on a FLIGHT LOG.
While vital in transoceanic flights, The USA is quite well covered in airports. And if you run low on fuel, there are options. Granted, you will have some 'splanin to do lucy...but come on. You sound like a private pilot on his first cross country.
I started something, talking about professionalism and the lack of it in the cockpit. I've seen captains more interested in reading a book about building a house, or filling out paperwork for their kid to get a college scholorship than monitoring position (and this was on a jet with VOR as primary nav).
Well, maybe good pilots are hard to come by. I hope those out there who are good, caring pilots just might have enjoyed flying with me.
I wouldn't let my copilot do his JEPPS enroute. I told him to do them on the ground and to keep his eyes ''on the road''.
We used to have to fill out ''claim forms'' for proper pay. That was to be done on the ground, not in the air.
A pilot is supposed to be concentrating 100 percent on the safety and well being of his passengers, crew and the others around his plane (as in folks on the ground).
I would say about 15% of the guys I have flown with are really pretty darn sharp. Some are average. And some are so laid back that they don't have a clue.
Now, I told my share of jokes. spoke of cute female FA's...but it was my rule that the work was done before the jokes were told.
While vital in transoceanic flights, The USA is quite well covered in airports. And if you run low on fuel, there are options. Granted, you will have some 'splanin to do lucy...but come on. You sound like a private pilot on his first cross country.
I started something, talking about professionalism and the lack of it in the cockpit. I've seen captains more interested in reading a book about building a house, or filling out paperwork for their kid to get a college scholorship than monitoring position (and this was on a jet with VOR as primary nav).
Well, maybe good pilots are hard to come by. I hope those out there who are good, caring pilots just might have enjoyed flying with me.
I wouldn't let my copilot do his JEPPS enroute. I told him to do them on the ground and to keep his eyes ''on the road''.
We used to have to fill out ''claim forms'' for proper pay. That was to be done on the ground, not in the air.
A pilot is supposed to be concentrating 100 percent on the safety and well being of his passengers, crew and the others around his plane (as in folks on the ground).
I would say about 15% of the guys I have flown with are really pretty darn sharp. Some are average. And some are so laid back that they don't have a clue.
Now, I told my share of jokes. spoke of cute female FA's...but it was my rule that the work was done before the jokes were told.
protectthehornet
You are staunch defender of these pilots.
Why not write a simple computer application (or a simple alarm clock, since clearly ATC didn't work) to notify the pilots they ought to listen and land?
My child hates it but we know how to cut off his computer access when he should go to bed, do homework, wake up, go to school, or other routine tasks.
It's not long ago the Hawaiian Airlines pilots overflew the Big Island by fifteen minutes because they fell asleep. If they went 150 miles past their destination or more, they may not have had enough fuel to return, and would face a touchdown in the "Pacific" ocean.
Alternate airports or farm fields are easier to find in the continental U.S., but is that really an excuse to get wrapped up in computer work that could be done on the ground?
These two pilots tossed their careers out the window by their inattention.
If you think "the system" or the FAA makes this level of disregard acceptable: Report it! Speak up!
Pilots have spoken to Congress about safety issues. Congress can be very slow to listen or act, but it doesn't excuse negligence.
None of you want to speak the last words on the CVR.
You are staunch defender of these pilots.
Why not write a simple computer application (or a simple alarm clock, since clearly ATC didn't work) to notify the pilots they ought to listen and land?
My child hates it but we know how to cut off his computer access when he should go to bed, do homework, wake up, go to school, or other routine tasks.
It's not long ago the Hawaiian Airlines pilots overflew the Big Island by fifteen minutes because they fell asleep. If they went 150 miles past their destination or more, they may not have had enough fuel to return, and would face a touchdown in the "Pacific" ocean.
Alternate airports or farm fields are easier to find in the continental U.S., but is that really an excuse to get wrapped up in computer work that could be done on the ground?
These two pilots tossed their careers out the window by their inattention.
If you think "the system" or the FAA makes this level of disregard acceptable: Report it! Speak up!
Pilots have spoken to Congress about safety issues. Congress can be very slow to listen or act, but it doesn't excuse negligence.
None of you want to speak the last words on the CVR.
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Just for the benefit of American pilots CRM stands for Crew Resource Management. It's a concept brought in in the UK over the past 15 years or so to improve safety and facilitate crew co-operation.
In 1980 UAL instituted a company CRM program after a DC-8 fuel exhaustion accident at PDX, December 28, 1978
CRM was credited for saving over a hundred lives in the 1989 UA 232 DC-10-10 accident at Sioux Falls.
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Seems to me that our two newly-defrocked aviators would be in some demand in the safety instructional field. There is nothing like an instructor's first-person experience to command a student's attention. 
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VIS3
Listen, I wanted to offer another point of view. What they did was wrong. But I am saying that it is going on right now in other planes that are just not making headlines.
Listen, I wanted to offer another point of view. What they did was wrong. But I am saying that it is going on right now in other planes that are just not making headlines.
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I think it is safe to assume that a couple of the recent posters are not professional pilots.
Still, to respond to that remark about the new fangled concept of CRM that came to the UK in the last 15 years:
Here's one fairly authoritative version of the origins of CRM.
From: http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...les/Pub235.pdf
Still, to respond to that remark about the new fangled concept of CRM that came to the UK in the last 15 years:
Here's one fairly authoritative version of the origins of CRM.
The roots of Crew Resource Management training in the United States are usually traced back to a workshop, Resource Management on the Flightdeck sponsored by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in 1979 (Cooper, White, & Lauber, 1980).
Last edited by Airbubba; 28th Oct 2009 at 02:09.
No, I'm not a professional pilot, so you can ignore everything I say.
Still, shouldn't someone up front watch the other for their own sake, if not for the person seated next to them?
Say, perhaps, only use one laptop computer and pass it back and forth?
Still, shouldn't someone up front watch the other for their own sake, if not for the person seated next to them?
Say, perhaps, only use one laptop computer and pass it back and forth?
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I can see some benefit in using laptops and other technology while cruising on long flights. However the same rules need to apply as if a pilot has to leave the flight deck. The flying pilot needs to assume full situational readiness!!
This had the makings of a UA173 type incident. Two pilots mesmerized over a laptop scheduling pgm. vs. a crew mesmerized over a faulty indicator light. UA173 had a fatal ending. Fortunately NW3274 did not. Maybe due in part to the FA that sensed something was wrong and asked for the ETA.
I agree that these guys should have their "wings clipped" but I like the idea of having them conduct some situational awareness workshops. Two successful flying careers come to a screeching hault. What better way to exemplify the impact of situational awareness gone awry.
This had the makings of a UA173 type incident. Two pilots mesmerized over a laptop scheduling pgm. vs. a crew mesmerized over a faulty indicator light. UA173 had a fatal ending. Fortunately NW3274 did not. Maybe due in part to the FA that sensed something was wrong and asked for the ETA.
I agree that these guys should have their "wings clipped" but I like the idea of having them conduct some situational awareness workshops. Two successful flying careers come to a screeching hault. What better way to exemplify the impact of situational awareness gone awry.
Last edited by Tri-To-Start; 28th Oct 2009 at 02:43.
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FAA to pilots: they were "on a frolic"
The FAA's letter to the Captain, courtesy of the Minneapolis paper: http://stmedia.startribune.com/docum...nDaycUiacyKUUr
and to the F/O: http://stmedia.startribune.com/docum...nDaycUiacyKUUr
Worth a read as it sets forth some facts I don't believe have been reported with respect to the timing of ATC contact as well as the legal basis for the certificate actions. In a nutshell, the letters state that the basis for revocation is violating FAR 91.13 (a) operating in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property (b) 91.123 (b)operating contrary to ATC instruction and (c) 91.135 (b) failure to maintain communication with ATC while in Class A airspace.
They are able to apply for a new certificate after a year; the fact that they have been revoked means that they have to retake the written test and checkride for each rating they held.
and to the F/O: http://stmedia.startribune.com/docum...nDaycUiacyKUUr
Worth a read as it sets forth some facts I don't believe have been reported with respect to the timing of ATC contact as well as the legal basis for the certificate actions. In a nutshell, the letters state that the basis for revocation is violating FAR 91.13 (a) operating in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property (b) 91.123 (b)operating contrary to ATC instruction and (c) 91.135 (b) failure to maintain communication with ATC while in Class A airspace.
They are able to apply for a new certificate after a year; the fact that they have been revoked means that they have to retake the written test and checkride for each rating they held.
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Like I said before, the only reason we have all this drama is because it's in the news. Airlines cover up incidents and accidents all the time-fact.
On long haul since 1974, I read the newspaper, catch up on my amendments.
If any of you dudes think that I sit there for 14 hours and watch dials, shoulder harness fastened,
psyched up, wired, etc., you've been watching too many movies on TV.
All these guys need is a tune up.
On long haul since 1974, I read the newspaper, catch up on my amendments.
If any of you dudes think that I sit there for 14 hours and watch dials, shoulder harness fastened,
psyched up, wired, etc., you've been watching too many movies on TV.
All these guys need is a tune up.
Last edited by skol; 28th Oct 2009 at 05:22.
From above mentioned letter: "for 91 minutes...while you were on a frolic of your own".
An interesting choice of words, hardly consistent with the alleged technical discussion over crew scheduling? At least it's clear that the writer doesn't believe there was any sleeping going on amidst the jolly japes.
I guess we await the next explanation, as those offered to date seem pretty implausible.
An interesting choice of words, hardly consistent with the alleged technical discussion over crew scheduling? At least it's clear that the writer doesn't believe there was any sleeping going on amidst the jolly japes.
I guess we await the next explanation, as those offered to date seem pretty implausible.
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It's funny how the ATP certificate number has been carefully blocked out (among other details) in the beginning of each of the letters, only to be displayed for all to see in the in the 'Determination of Emergency' section!
But I am saying that it is going on right now in other planes that are just not making headlines.
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Professional Standards
We don't fill out fuel burns, and all the stuff you are talking about. Now, a good pilot is keeping tabs on things. And watching fuel vs. eta and all that. But we don't write things down on a FLIGHT LOG.
While vital in transoceanic flights, The USA is quite well covered in airports. And if you run low on fuel, there are options. Granted, you will have some 'splanin to do lucy...but come on. You sound like a private pilot on his first cross country.
While vital in transoceanic flights, The USA is quite well covered in airports. And if you run low on fuel, there are options. Granted, you will have some 'splanin to do lucy...but come on. You sound like a private pilot on his first cross country.
I am required to note the w/v, the TAS, the ISA Deviation, the time I pass my wpt and the fuel on board, to name but a few! I also have to periodically check the sum of fuel used and fuel on board and to explain any differences to what I departed with - and on a FLIGHT LOG too! Sheesh!! I love the rather 'hick' way of monitoring fuel, as described above. Oh, and I am checked up every 30 minutes or so by the cabin crew - a vital service if you ask me when you fly the back end of the clock regularly and do anything from 45 minutes to 14 hour plus sectors. Why oh why are so many pilots disparaging of this vital bit of crew coordination here? I applaud the cabin crew lady who pointed out the CRM as well as the safety benefits a few pages back. Guess the americans know best though....!
One puzzling aspect of this whole saga, to me, though is the cabin crew. Doesn't matter how long our sectors are, the question most oft-asked post TOC by the CC is 'when is TOD'? I'll wager that if I didn't descend within 3 minutes of that time then I would be getting calls on it from the back!
The cabin crew are a vital asset and a valuable safety tool - so I was gobsmacked to find one aussie on here who claimed that he would 'slap the bitch' who called him every 20 minutes! Great CRM - and from a nation that appears to pride itself on being laid-back whilst (not so) secretly being one of the most ardent rule followers under the sun!
Lest anyone want to argue the pros and cons of the 20/30 minute calling from the crew, when 'controlled rest' is being undertaken by one of the crew members on the FD - yes, this is encouraged - then the other pilot calls the cabin crew every 30 minutes. Miss the call and sure as eggs is eggs the crew will be calling forward. It works and it works well. Am just amazed that it appears not to be a world-wide standard.
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The David Letterman Show!!
And so David Letterman Monday night offered the Top Ten Northwest Airlines Pilot Excuses on CBS.
10. Bunch of fat guys seated on the right side of the plane made us vector east.
9. We get paid by the hour.
8. Mapquest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?
7. Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention.
6. You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails.
5. Wanted to catch the end of the in-flight movie.
4. Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting.
3. According to our map, we only missed our target by half an inch.
2. For a change, we decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers.
1. Thought we saw balloon boy.
10. Bunch of fat guys seated on the right side of the plane made us vector east.
9. We get paid by the hour.
8. Mapquest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?
7. Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention.
6. You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails.
5. Wanted to catch the end of the in-flight movie.
4. Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting.
3. According to our map, we only missed our target by half an inch.
2. For a change, we decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers.
1. Thought we saw balloon boy.
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0 - i.e. Go's without saying...
They actually did fall asleep and the airline's lawyers are responsible for all the dispicable excuses coming out of NW right now to save their own asses.
They actually did fall asleep and the airline's lawyers are responsible for all the dispicable excuses coming out of NW right now to save their own asses.