Crash at Sharjah airport

[Super VC-10]

The cargo carried was air conditioning units, car parts, computers and tools.

Azza Transport Flight 2241 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Heracles]

A wiki page already?, wow.
Thanks to guys who still frequent the gulf for keeping an ear open.

For future reference, the cowling on the older Pratts are NOT ATTACHED to the aircraft at the top. The very old (dating myself here) J-57's, the TF-33/JT-3's, and the JT-9 series motors cowlings upper hinge is simply a curved blade that rests in a "cage" of rollers. There is no mechanical hinge per-se. Combine that with the curvature of the upper edge of the cowl,, it's VERY easy to miss-align and still close these cowls. They will latch at the bottom and be very obviously out of rig at the top. More often than not the ground engineers will simply waste alot of effort trying to get all 5-7 of them to line up,,, it's an "art".lol
Not saying that it's particularly relevent here, just adding to the knowledge base when I can.


I still think that this 707 had a really good initial climb angle,, and something BLEW that cowling off....hmm
i'd love to see the initial departure instructions for that runway. My money says they include a right turn.
--Heracles

[Topswitch]

411A

It was a Dan-Air 707 fresh of a C check with Pan-Am

[10 DME ARC]

Heracles
The initial departure instructions would have been to climb straight ahead no turn for atleast 8nm on SID or 2000ft radar vectored.
10D

[brakedwell]

I remember the Lusaka accident well as I was in Nairobi at the time after operating a DC8 from Lusaka the previous day. The Danair 707 was chartered by IAS for a series of contracted Zambia Airways flights running on alternate days to the IAS DC8's. The captain was a friend of mine. GBEBP was the prototype 707 freighter used by Boeing for testing before it was delivered to Panam. The captain who operated the LHR-ATH-NAI sectors told me he had experienced stab a trim problem on the approach into Athens and Nairobi. On finals into NAI it was serious enough for him to ask for a loading check. The cargo was offloaded and weighed, confirming the load sheet was correct. Sadly, the horizontal stab detached itself on the next approach!

[iflytb20]

i'd love to see the initial departure instructions for that runway. My money says they include a right turn.

Every time i've departed from SHJ R30 in the last 4 years, the instruction has always been the same "Climb straight ahead to XXXX feet, once airborne contact DXB Departures" . So i am presuming they got something similar.

[Heracles]

As stated earlier:
"Either that,, or I'm wrong. It's casual,, I'm actually getting a little used to being wrong."

Thanks for the info guys,, it really has been awhile since I either operated a 707 or transited SHJ. All I know for sure is with this glorious old bird,, if you turn into the dead engine,, good luck. If you turn into the dead engineS,, the wing will go down and nothing in the world will bring it back up.
I sat sideways in the 707, 727 and 747 among others for more hours than I really want to admit,, still have a soft spot in my head for the 7-oh'. Maybe because she was my first. Cheers.
--Heracles

[four engine jock]

Maybe because she was my first.

She was my first also!
You are 100% correct with regards the dead engine.
As to the B707, she was the Queen of the sky and will be forever.

[411A]

If you turn into the dead engineS,, the wing will go down and nothing in the world will bring it back up.

If this were the case, the airplane would never had been certified, even under CAR4B, as it was.
Keep up the speed, and sufficient rudder authority is there, altho a heavy foot is required, without a doubt.
And yes, I've flown the airplane extensively, in Command, long ago.

[four engine jock]

If this were the case, the airplane would never had been certified.

Very True. But not on take off. With a speed above 200 Knots yes. But if loose two same side at low speed never. not even with the big ass rudder the B707 has.,,, Note: This is with just over 8600 hours on the B707.

[411A]

But if loose two same side at low speed never

You should know, four engine jock, that the 'two engines failed on the same side case' is NOT a certification requirement, under CAR4B nor 14CFR25, for the takeoff.

If you didn't know this, then you are poorly informed.
Also, Vmca, two engines failed (same side), rudder boost ON, is 170 KIAS, on -320B advanced aircraft.

Suggest you return to your AFM for some dedicated reading on the subject.

[DC-ATE]

four engine jock -

As to the B707, she was the Queen of the sky and will be forever.

Naturally, I would have to disagree with that.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Suggest you return to your AFM for some dedicated reading on the subject. Today 09:35

I would think that applies to me too

[411A]

I would think that applies to me too

Not necessarily.
To review, specifically concerning the 707-320B/C advanced cowl aircraft....
Vmca, rudder boost ON, outboard engine failed, 120 KIAS.
Two engines failed (same side) rudder boost ON, 170 KIAS.
One outboard engine failed, rudder boost OFF, 180 KIAS.
Two engines failed (same side) rudder boost OFF, 235 KIAS.

When I obtained my FAA type rating on the B707 in 1974, the FAA required an NDB/VOR circling approach, one outboard engine failed (idle thrust) and, during the circling maneuver, the second engine failed (idle thrust, on the same side) to all be completed within the TERPS circling criteria (600/2), to a landing.
These FAA inspectors at the time demanded accuracy and complete competancy, and I suspect it has not changed much in the meantime.
Having said this, I was trained to proficiency
by PanAmerican...the absolute finest training I have obtained in over forty years of professional flying.
I cannot say enough for PanAmerican, they trained their crews (in my particular case, contract training) very well, and the FAA inspectors gave nothing away.
IE: tough as nails.
And, IMHO, as it absolutely should be.
The B707 was not an especially easy airplane to fly, when it all went pear-shaped.
However...a very reliable airplane...IF maintained properly.

[Pugilistic Animus]

411A that's the way to do it

how many wrong runways have you taken off from

PA

[411A]

how many wrong runways have you taken off from

...

[PJ2]

411A;

The DC8 had about the same numbers - 240kts with two out on one side on the Conway, (40 series), lower speed with flaps due to greater rudder authority. The stretch had slightly lower speeds.

Re "training" and "finest of...etc", has training changed to accomodate automation today or has the bottom line driven training to new lows in the expectation that automation will "look after the store"?

The question isn't loaded - I'm seriously wondering if we are training human factors in order to train automation appropriately; I can tell you that training syllabi that I am aware of today do not include an engine-out/two-engine out NDB/non-precision approach and that handling skills on raw data with an orientation, procedure turn and approach on an NDB are at an all-time low partly because they don't have to be "without fault" but partly because that's also what the industry leaders and regulators think mainly because the autoflight systems are so damn good, providing they are operated with the same comprehension and skill levels expected during the kinds of rides you describe. My first IFR ride was a lost orientation and range approach into Nanaimo...not on single engine, thankfully, so I know both sides.

[Fish Head on Final]

DC-8 Is 210 On 2 eng.

[PJ2]

DC-8 Is 210 On 2 eng.

Thanks - on the 50/60 series.

[411A]

Re "training" and "finest of...etc", has training changed to accomodate automation today or has the bottom line driven training to new lows in the expectation that automation will "look after the store"?

The latter category, in my opinion.