USA House passes aviation safety bill
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe, but the question is - Why? Why on this specific flight and not on any of the other 100's of flights they had done before? 1500 hours, or 2000 for that matter, does not necessary mean that you are more qualified than a 300 hour pilot. Try to put a newly a320/737 rated bush pilot, with 2000 hrs, on a Amsterdam to London Heathrow sector. Then compare him to an airline cadet scheme pilot a la CTC/CabAir/Oxford who did his/hers training in and around the busy London TMA. Wanna bet who'll do the best job? QUALITY of training and experience is important, not so much QUANTITY.
CP
CP
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Surrey (actually)
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the cadet versus experience argument is somewhat moot. I speak as someone who started as a cadet, who now flies with cadets, or their modern equivalent.
The problem, or potential one, comes down to the quality of people you attract to the profession. If the only people you attract into the business are ones whose mummy and daddy are rich enough to send them to pilot school, or who are so desperate to be an airline pilot that they will borrow huge sums, you restrict your potential "gene pool". That is not to say that those people are all bad, but you are missing out on a large number of people who simply can't afford it, or choose another profession.
Sadly, just really, really wanting to do something does not necessarily make you any good at it; sport is a good example. I wonder how military operations would fare, if the only people they had flying their toys had stumped up the money to fly them?
Yes, when I started, I was wet behind the ears, and had to learn a lot very quickly, but presumably, the selection process I'd been through was designed to make sure that I'd at least have a chance of coping. I know, nowadays that the standard of applicants to my airline is lower than it used to be. We, at least get to skim off the top, but there just won't be the same numbers of quality people coming through, if a) airlines don't sponsor, and b) the potential rewards are not there.
Sadly, as aviation is so safe, through years of hard work by so many, it will take many years for any problem to manifest itself. A 20-30 year ticking time bomb, which, even as an ex-cadet, I don't consider myself part of.
The problem, or potential one, comes down to the quality of people you attract to the profession. If the only people you attract into the business are ones whose mummy and daddy are rich enough to send them to pilot school, or who are so desperate to be an airline pilot that they will borrow huge sums, you restrict your potential "gene pool". That is not to say that those people are all bad, but you are missing out on a large number of people who simply can't afford it, or choose another profession.
Sadly, just really, really wanting to do something does not necessarily make you any good at it; sport is a good example. I wonder how military operations would fare, if the only people they had flying their toys had stumped up the money to fly them?
Yes, when I started, I was wet behind the ears, and had to learn a lot very quickly, but presumably, the selection process I'd been through was designed to make sure that I'd at least have a chance of coping. I know, nowadays that the standard of applicants to my airline is lower than it used to be. We, at least get to skim off the top, but there just won't be the same numbers of quality people coming through, if a) airlines don't sponsor, and b) the potential rewards are not there.
Sadly, as aviation is so safe, through years of hard work by so many, it will take many years for any problem to manifest itself. A 20-30 year ticking time bomb, which, even as an ex-cadet, I don't consider myself part of.
Last edited by Slickster; 16th Oct 2009 at 12:57.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
xx621 - Yes, he would do better. In a DeHavilland Beaver, not in a modern flight deck. 
I think nothing will change as long as punters consider a ticket for more than ₤50 an expensive ticket.
You get what you pay for. This goes for service, safety, leg space etc etc etc......
CP
I think nothing will change as long as punters consider a ticket for more than ₤50 an expensive ticket.
You get what you pay for. This goes for service, safety, leg space etc etc etc...... CP
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A 250 cadet in Europe is far a different pilot from that of a 250 hour pilot in the States.
Every one of those 250 hours a cadet accumulates is structured. Structure means discipline... perhaps because of the costs involved, or the course itself.
The academics and testing a cadet completes is far greater in scope than that of a 250 pilot in the US. Is a cadet a better pilot than a 250 hour pilot from the States??? or is a 250 pilot a better pilot than a cadet. They both have their merits.
But at the end of the day... it's the guy in the left seat that will set the tone how the flight will be conducted.
Both pilots have an acceptable expectation that both shall follow the conduct themselves as if a check ride were in process.
Every one of those 250 hours a cadet accumulates is structured. Structure means discipline... perhaps because of the costs involved, or the course itself.
The academics and testing a cadet completes is far greater in scope than that of a 250 pilot in the US. Is a cadet a better pilot than a 250 hour pilot from the States??? or is a 250 pilot a better pilot than a cadet. They both have their merits.
But at the end of the day... it's the guy in the left seat that will set the tone how the flight will be conducted.
Both pilots have an acceptable expectation that both shall follow the conduct themselves as if a check ride were in process.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As posted by Punk666. In fact people who had to work hard for the funding would cut more corners and do it cheaper compared to someone who has the funding already..I know that statement is not 100% true but i have seen it with my own eyes.
Punk, you really lost your credibility with the above statement
. Punk... you were very fortunate to have you folks fund your flight training. Punk... you are also very priveleged without the worries of repaying loans.OK self funded guys... post up... do you agree or disagree with the Punk?
It's a shame your vision is blurred
.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Surrey (actually)
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saying "whose mummy and daddy are rich enough to send them to pilot school" is a wrong comment because i have wanted to be a pilot from 8 years old and i was lucky enough to get my parents to fund my flying im now type rated on the 737-300/900 with FAA CP/IR. Because you worked your ass off for a few years to fund your flying doesnt make you any better than someone who was lucky enough to have the funding at the start.
I have no beef with people funding themselves, or their parents. But the fact of the matter is that you are severely restricting your intake, if that is the only section of society that become pilots. In the British Army you used to be able to purchase your commission (and sell it on). They gave that practice up long ago, sometime after the battle of Waterloo.
I worked my ass off to become a pilot, but didn't pay for it - my airline did. Hardly any of the 12 other people on my course would have become airline pilots, if there was no sponsorship; they would have pursued successful careers elsewhere, including military flying. Most of them could punctuate, and use capital letters too.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the trainers
One point only lightly touched on is the experience of the instructors. Many pilots are trained by instructors who only became qualified CPLs/QFIs a year or two before their students. The commercial schools even hire newly/recently qualified pilots who were themselves students at the same school.
One of the most important qualities for good instruction is a deep understanding of why we do things the way we do them. A lot of this comes from experience, otherwise it is all monkey see-monkey do which is not the best stance from which to learn a profession which has a tendency to kill you if your awareness and understanding are lacking.
For credability, good habits and high airmanship, it is preferable to be taught by someone who has actually done the job for a while rather than a tyro who only got their license shortly before the student starts training
.
One of the most important qualities for good instruction is a deep understanding of why we do things the way we do them. A lot of this comes from experience, otherwise it is all monkey see-monkey do which is not the best stance from which to learn a profession which has a tendency to kill you if your awareness and understanding are lacking.
For credability, good habits and high airmanship, it is preferable to be taught by someone who has actually done the job for a while rather than a tyro who only got their license shortly before the student starts training
.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Moon
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P51guy.
RS was hired with in excess of 1000 hrs (Q400 mins at colgan at the time) and I think she may have even had 1600 at DOH. Yes MR was lower than 1000 when he got hired, but not by much. In any case, both were well over 2000 TT at teh time of the crash. Other people who have told me about him have said how professional he was to fly with.
This bill is a BS knee jerk reaction to pacify the US public. They have not address the two main issues that have led to this tragic event
1. Crew fatigue - Flying pax for 16 hrs followed by more part 91 flying repo's then 8 hrs off before more 121 flying?????? The US system is stupid but most unions will ot address that as it may reduce days off per month which the senior pilots with 18 days off per month will not agree too!
2. FAA training is a joke. Zero to hero in 4 months being advertised by some schools. That is plain retarded. Learn 1000 questions and have a 1 hr flight test per rating. If you are ever bored, watch a video by nasa on youtube about TP icing, showing the tail stalling first requiring recovery action of pull back and flaps up. Could MR have been tired, and mistaken this that was shown to him in training at Colgan? Who knows. He saw the movie in intital training and probably every year in recurrent, so its possible.
You can't even blame colgan for this. They did train to the FAA standard. Problem is that the FAA standard is a little hard to find!
The only thing they have accomplished is the following pyramid situation:
1 flight instructor will need 5 students to qualify for the airlines. Those 5 students becoming instructors will need 5 students each. So out of 31 CPLs only 6 can goto the airlines. Couple that with the latest and greatest by TSA reducing student numbers, and funding being cut left right and center, there will be a real shortage in the near future. Then the airlines will petition congress to drop the bill in a couple of years. So nothing achived there!
As I said. This bill is retarded and is just there to please the public until they decide that they don't have enough pilots.
They need to look towards Europe for better standards such as
1. Removing DPEs from IR, CPL and ATPL and just use staff examiners on salary who are not trying to complete as many check rides in a day to line their pockets
2. Increase requirements in the theoretical knowledge to a way that maybe cuts some candidates who can only use rote to pass exams.
3. Make skills tests a minimum of 2.5 hrs.
4. remove POI's from airlines who are obviously in the back pockets.
5. Stop part 91 flights after 121 fights
6. reduce max hours worked then increase minimum rest periods.
7. get rid of "legal to start legal to finish"
8 Introduce 6 month sim checks for both FO's and CA.
Oh but wait...... that all might cost too much and maybe the old farts at the top of the seniority lists will end up havign to work more than 10 days per month! Ok, scap that and pat yourselves on the back for a job well done!
Don't jump on the graves of the dead, look to the other issues that were REAL issues!
RS was hired with in excess of 1000 hrs (Q400 mins at colgan at the time) and I think she may have even had 1600 at DOH. Yes MR was lower than 1000 when he got hired, but not by much. In any case, both were well over 2000 TT at teh time of the crash. Other people who have told me about him have said how professional he was to fly with.
This bill is a BS knee jerk reaction to pacify the US public. They have not address the two main issues that have led to this tragic event
1. Crew fatigue - Flying pax for 16 hrs followed by more part 91 flying repo's then 8 hrs off before more 121 flying?????? The US system is stupid but most unions will ot address that as it may reduce days off per month which the senior pilots with 18 days off per month will not agree too!
2. FAA training is a joke. Zero to hero in 4 months being advertised by some schools. That is plain retarded. Learn 1000 questions and have a 1 hr flight test per rating. If you are ever bored, watch a video by nasa on youtube about TP icing, showing the tail stalling first requiring recovery action of pull back and flaps up. Could MR have been tired, and mistaken this that was shown to him in training at Colgan? Who knows. He saw the movie in intital training and probably every year in recurrent, so its possible.
You can't even blame colgan for this. They did train to the FAA standard. Problem is that the FAA standard is a little hard to find!
The only thing they have accomplished is the following pyramid situation:
1 flight instructor will need 5 students to qualify for the airlines. Those 5 students becoming instructors will need 5 students each. So out of 31 CPLs only 6 can goto the airlines. Couple that with the latest and greatest by TSA reducing student numbers, and funding being cut left right and center, there will be a real shortage in the near future. Then the airlines will petition congress to drop the bill in a couple of years. So nothing achived there!
As I said. This bill is retarded and is just there to please the public until they decide that they don't have enough pilots.
They need to look towards Europe for better standards such as
1. Removing DPEs from IR, CPL and ATPL and just use staff examiners on salary who are not trying to complete as many check rides in a day to line their pockets
2. Increase requirements in the theoretical knowledge to a way that maybe cuts some candidates who can only use rote to pass exams.
3. Make skills tests a minimum of 2.5 hrs.
4. remove POI's from airlines who are obviously in the back pockets.
5. Stop part 91 flights after 121 fights
6. reduce max hours worked then increase minimum rest periods.
7. get rid of "legal to start legal to finish"
8 Introduce 6 month sim checks for both FO's and CA.
Oh but wait...... that all might cost too much and maybe the old farts at the top of the seniority lists will end up havign to work more than 10 days per month! Ok, scap that and pat yourselves on the back for a job well done!
Don't jump on the graves of the dead, look to the other issues that were REAL issues!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A 250 cadet in Europe is far a different pilot from that of a 250 hour pilot in the States.
But at the end of the day... it's the guy in the left seat that will set the tone how the flight will be conducted.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Maybe, but the question is - Why? Why on this specific flight and not on any of the other 100's of flights they had done before? 1500 hours, or 2000 for that matter, does not necessary mean that you are more qualified than a 300 hour pilot. Try to put a newly a320/737 rated bush pilot, with 2000 hrs, on a Amsterdam to London Heathrow sector. Then compare him to an airline cadet scheme pilot a la CTC/CabAir/Oxford who did his/hers training in and around the busy London TMA. Wanna bet who'll do the best job? QUALITY of training and experience is important, not so much QUANTITY.
CP"
RIGHT ON!
CP"
RIGHT ON!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Quote:
As posted by Punk666. In fact people who had to work hard for the funding would cut more corners and do it cheaper compared to someone who has the funding already..I know that statement is not 100% true but i have seen it with my own eyes.
Punk, you really lost your credibility with the above statement. Punk... you were very fortunate to have you folks fund your flight training. Punk... you are also very priveleged without the worries of repaying loans.
OK self funded guys... post up... do you agree or disagree with the Punk?
It's a shame your vision is blurred."
I disagree with you on this Capt.
Ability to repay the loan and the stresses involved in that process have nothing to do with someone's ability to learn! I have done both: parents funded the initial education – 12th grade; I funded the 'Flight Training'. I don't see myself any better or worst than those who were not as fortunate as I was.
However, in my experience as a student, instructor, charter/cargo/corporate, and airline pilot, I see it all the time where those [who struggled financially to fund their training] pilots truly believe they are ‘better’ than those whose parent’s funded flight training and they are ‘more’ worthy of airline jobs since they are the ones who ‘paid their dues’.
I truly believe it’s nothing but PURE jealousy!
Interesting thing here in the US is a clear divide between those who went to FBO for flight training and those who through a 4-year college regardless of whether parents funded the flight training or not. Those who didn’t go through the 4-year college degree [Flight Programs] clearly have disdain for those who did.
There’s no way one can be treated for ‘low self-esteem’ unless one visits her/his psychologist on a regular basis!
As posted by Punk666. In fact people who had to work hard for the funding would cut more corners and do it cheaper compared to someone who has the funding already..I know that statement is not 100% true but i have seen it with my own eyes.
Punk, you really lost your credibility with the above statement. Punk... you were very fortunate to have you folks fund your flight training. Punk... you are also very priveleged without the worries of repaying loans.
OK self funded guys... post up... do you agree or disagree with the Punk?
It's a shame your vision is blurred."
I disagree with you on this Capt.
Ability to repay the loan and the stresses involved in that process have nothing to do with someone's ability to learn! I have done both: parents funded the initial education – 12th grade; I funded the 'Flight Training'. I don't see myself any better or worst than those who were not as fortunate as I was.
However, in my experience as a student, instructor, charter/cargo/corporate, and airline pilot, I see it all the time where those [who struggled financially to fund their training] pilots truly believe they are ‘better’ than those whose parent’s funded flight training and they are ‘more’ worthy of airline jobs since they are the ones who ‘paid their dues’.
I truly believe it’s nothing but PURE jealousy!
Interesting thing here in the US is a clear divide between those who went to FBO for flight training and those who through a 4-year college regardless of whether parents funded the flight training or not. Those who didn’t go through the 4-year college degree [Flight Programs] clearly have disdain for those who did.
There’s no way one can be treated for ‘low self-esteem’ unless one visits her/his psychologist on a regular basis!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I disagree with you on this Capt.
However, IMHO, to suggest that a pilot who has his training funded is better than a self funded trained pilot is just plane arrogant
.Not only did I pay for my flight training, I also had to pay my college tuition.
I funded my college tuition as a CFI and charter pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thing here in the US is a clear divide between those who went to FBO for flight training and those who through a 4-year college regardless of whether parents funded the flight training or not. Those who didn’t go through the 4-year college degree [Flight Programs] clearly have disdain for those who did.
Now when it comes to certain operations based in Florida, then yes – there are strongly held opinions.
But the simple truth is that good pilots come from all backgrounds. And so do the weak ones.
"But the simple truth is that good pilots come from all backgrounds. And so do the weak ones."
That is the truest comment on this thread. The other truism is that there must be a higher percentage of good pilots amongst those that went through selection procedures to be sponsored, than those that worked, or paid, their way.
That is the truest comment on this thread. The other truism is that there must be a higher percentage of good pilots amongst those that went through selection procedures to be sponsored, than those that worked, or paid, their way.
oh yeah the highest possible 'British' standards from 'ace the technical pilot interview'
being a pilot is a role and the pilot is actor. Except he must actually read the needles it not about how many square roots you can take either; it isabout adapting to the role
being a pilot is a role and the pilot is actor. Except he must actually read the needles it not about how many square roots you can take either; it isabout adapting to the role
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...The other truism is that there must be a higher percentage of good pilots amongst those that went through selection procedures to be sponsored, than those that worked, or paid, their way.
And the education is very, very real.
Now at the interview the clothing may not be as stylish, and the haircut might be cheap, but the eyes have seen enough ice to know when it is a problem, flown enough real world missed approaches that the next one won't be a shock and are starting to grasp what the radar is showing them. And they have learned to be wary.
This is why Americans value that first 1500/2000 hours or so. On one hand we don't have true cadet programs, but we do have entry level flying opportunities that don't exist in Europe combined with plenty of weather. And this is why, in America, low time FOs in 121 operations are seen as an issue.
Last edited by 742; 16th Oct 2009 at 20:04.
742 excellent point not to mention your average CFI having done several thousand circling approaches to low mins is pretty sharp at 1500---your post is what I'm talking about
in the old days an airmail pilot was considered a veteran after 200hrs ---for a good reason the death rate was 1/4
those who want to bypass all of that valuable learning experience or are in so much of a rush to wear a uniform to get paid like crap just to impress others--- is a product of the modern world where knowledge/abilty does not count only the abilty to answer 50 conflict resolution question as if the FD were some muppety corporate office filled with mindless brown nosing idiots--and look what that type of 'high self esteem individual' did on the useless grounfd WRT the economy---you want to impress me with low hours---- become an unlimited aerobatic champion, otherwise save it for someone who believes this nonsense
in the old days an airmail pilot was considered a veteran after 200hrs ---for a good reason the death rate was 1/4
those who want to bypass all of that valuable learning experience or are in so much of a rush to wear a uniform to get paid like crap just to impress others--- is a product of the modern world where knowledge/abilty does not count only the abilty to answer 50 conflict resolution question as if the FD were some muppety corporate office filled with mindless brown nosing idiots--and look what that type of 'high self esteem individual' did on the useless grounfd WRT the economy---you want to impress me with low hours---- become an unlimited aerobatic champion, otherwise save it for someone who believes this nonsense
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Moon
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plectron, I don't think anybody wishes they were in your shoes when the other crew memeber is there for the wrong reason. Daddy owns the plane so I'm here. Personnally I feal more for the first new FO that will have to fly with them as they are sure to upgrade at the first opertunity.
With or without HR 3371 (which of course doesn't apply to those countries) those people should have been cut at the sim check stage of any reasonable interview; but hours shouldn't have anything to do with it.
With or without HR 3371 (which of course doesn't apply to those countries) those people should have been cut at the sim check stage of any reasonable interview; but hours shouldn't have anything to do with it.