Pilots protest over flying hours
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.
Would this be a good time to bring up the fact that LAME's/AME's/A&P's in most parts of the world don't have duty time restrictions, late shift/early shift restrictions, are expected to work the same day that they arrive at work even if travelling through multiple timezones (12 timezones for me in fact), and yet nobody seems to be interested in commissioning a study on the affects of fatigue on maintenance crew and the affect that it poses to airline safety or aviation safety as a whole. Interesting.
If anybody does know of some such study for engineering staff, please PM me with details, I would be very interested to know.
Yes it is extremely important to ensure that aircrew are well rested for their duty day, but perhaps think about the mechanic who works 11 hour shifts on the ramp, 6 days a week, on a 7 month contract for one of the larger aviation companies in the world. I sure needed a rest after that one! And no, that type of contract is not unusual.
Perhaps after the pilots in the EU get their lot sorted, and I hope you do, there will be some sort of flowdown affect. I doubt it though, primarily due to the fact that most aviation companies see maintenance as an expense that they need to try to minimise, instead of a tool that can be used to minimise downtime.
I'll now get down off my soapbox. Duty periods for engineering staff is a pet hate of mine!! You might have been able to tell.
If anybody does know of some such study for engineering staff, please PM me with details, I would be very interested to know.
Yes it is extremely important to ensure that aircrew are well rested for their duty day, but perhaps think about the mechanic who works 11 hour shifts on the ramp, 6 days a week, on a 7 month contract for one of the larger aviation companies in the world. I sure needed a rest after that one! And no, that type of contract is not unusual.
Perhaps after the pilots in the EU get their lot sorted, and I hope you do, there will be some sort of flowdown affect. I doubt it though, primarily due to the fact that most aviation companies see maintenance as an expense that they need to try to minimise, instead of a tool that can be used to minimise downtime.
I'll now get down off my soapbox. Duty periods for engineering staff is a pet hate of mine!! You might have been able to tell.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BAE Symptoms of Contaminated air - Fatigue...
Here is a helpful list of possible symptoms from BAE (at the end of the link), which may be experienced from contaminated cabin air - familiar anyone?
Head normal, headache, light-headed, pressure in head, ‘moon-walking’.
General normal, dizzy, faint, giddy, vague lack of concentration, poor co-ordination.
Alertness normal, fatigued, tired, sleepy, somnolent, exhausted.
Emotions normal, relaxed, euphoric, elated, ‘drunk’, intoxicated, irritable, morose, pugnacious.
Eyes normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Nose normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Throat normal, dry, irritated, burning.
Breathing normal, shortness of breath, breathless, laboured breathing, rapid breathing, pressure in chest.
Stomach normal, nauseous, vomiting.
Numbness or Tingling none, scalp, hair-roots, nose, lips, fingers, toes.
‘Blueness’ none, lips, nail-beds, finger-tips.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...6-RJ-536-1.pdf
I had most of them, but crippling fatigue was by far the worst.
DB
Head normal, headache, light-headed, pressure in head, ‘moon-walking’.
General normal, dizzy, faint, giddy, vague lack of concentration, poor co-ordination.
Alertness normal, fatigued, tired, sleepy, somnolent, exhausted.
Emotions normal, relaxed, euphoric, elated, ‘drunk’, intoxicated, irritable, morose, pugnacious.
Eyes normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Nose normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Throat normal, dry, irritated, burning.
Breathing normal, shortness of breath, breathless, laboured breathing, rapid breathing, pressure in chest.
Stomach normal, nauseous, vomiting.
Numbness or Tingling none, scalp, hair-roots, nose, lips, fingers, toes.
‘Blueness’ none, lips, nail-beds, finger-tips.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...6-RJ-536-1.pdf
I had most of them, but crippling fatigue was by far the worst.
DB
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Wickford,Essex,England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did shift work from the age of 18 to 42,various types of shift systems in different jobs.
I came to the conclusion that when you are young, shift work is not a problem but as you get older it starts to effect your health.
I took a daywork job at 42 with a considerable reduction in salary.Felt much better even though the job had a higher stress level.
I came to the conclusion that when you are young, shift work is not a problem but as you get older it starts to effect your health.
I took a daywork job at 42 with a considerable reduction in salary.Felt much better even though the job had a higher stress level.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe if the public knew how often pilots fall asleep whilst they're on their way to Spain (and everywhere else) they might think again.
I've flown dozens of sectors (as have many of us) when the other pilot was asleep for part of the trip - sometimes without knowing it - and on one occasion denying it as he had no idea he'd drifted off!
I've never fallen asleep myself, but I've been EXTREMELY fatigued - and on one occasion developed a 'poorly tummy' to enable me to get off the duty in between sectors because I couldn't function property I was so tired.
I'm sure the public have visions of two, fit, alert individuals flying the aeroplane when, in fact, they are almost certainly fatigued to some degree and possibly asleep.
Happy days! not
FOK
I've flown dozens of sectors (as have many of us) when the other pilot was asleep for part of the trip - sometimes without knowing it - and on one occasion denying it as he had no idea he'd drifted off!
I've never fallen asleep myself, but I've been EXTREMELY fatigued - and on one occasion developed a 'poorly tummy' to enable me to get off the duty in between sectors because I couldn't function property I was so tired.
I'm sure the public have visions of two, fit, alert individuals flying the aeroplane when, in fact, they are almost certainly fatigued to some degree and possibly asleep.
Happy days! not
FOK
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Age: 80
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A is absolutely right, if it is not cheap it is no good.
It is about time that air fares go up to enable airlines
to earn enough money to invest in new aircraft etc.,
pay decent wages to their staff and offer them good
working conditions.
It is about time that air fares go up to enable airlines
to earn enough money to invest in new aircraft etc.,
pay decent wages to their staff and offer them good
working conditions.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Several points need making here. Firstly and most importantly, you don't fly if fatigued. Therefore, you have to follow your company's protocol for informing that you are not available for work. If undue pressure is then placed on you to work when you are not fit (or an invitation for tea and biscuits), then file a Chirp report and also make sure your union is on your case. Should you be at work and find yourself fatigued then make a Pan call, write an ASR and other such paperwork. You may even have to divert. That will get their attention. However, you should have been clear in your own mind that you were convinced before departure that you could safely complete the flight.
Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home. Again, another union matter.
Lastly, you are a Union member, aren't you?
PM
Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home. Again, another union matter.
Lastly, you are a Union member, aren't you?
PM
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.
Don't forget, your union is you and your collegues. So are you saying is that your collegues are not very useful?
PM
Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you die in an car crash as a direct result of driving whilst fatigued, you and your company are responsible. You for driving and your company for making you fatigued. I can't give you references, but we have agreements from our company that following certain duties (extended on the day) you will be booked into a hotel at your home base - because they have a duty of care towards us. Again, another union negotiated entitlement.
PM
PM
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
A few weeks ago the Danish Association for Aviation and Diving Medicine had a very interesting lecture by John Caldwell, Ph.D., USA,
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
The presentations are available here
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...#91;1].pdf
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...hop_2009_b.pdf
The "official" page for the European Campaign is here:
www.dead-tired.eu
PS I've posted this previously under the FAA thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...est-rules.html
but thought Caldwells presentation deserved another mention.
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
The presentations are available here
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...#91;1].pdf
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...hop_2009_b.pdf
The "official" page for the European Campaign is here:
www.dead-tired.eu
PS I've posted this previously under the FAA thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...est-rules.html
but thought Caldwells presentation deserved another mention.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Piltdown Man
Firstly, no disrespect.
I don't know if you fly or with whom, but if you try that approach with the low-cost carriers it is, in my experience, unlikely to succeed.
I hope the carriers have changed in the past few years, but if either flightdeck or cabin crew with a certain 'colourful' airline tried the trick of reporting 'sick' on a regular basis action was taken against them. Heaven forbid you told the truth and said you were fatigued because you were working five or six days 4 or 6 sector days on the trot! I got very tired having worked a minimum 12 hour day, then an hours' drive each way each day. That left 10 hours 'home time' of which, by necessity, at least 8 hours was asleep. So 2 hours at home awake max. No wonder I binned airline flying in the end. It just wasn't safe when the (then) Captains were falling asleep and expecting me to be sufficently awake to do the navigation, 'flying' and RT - and eat and complete the plog and talk to the pax. Was it unsafe? I don't know. Would we have passed a sim detail or carried on like that with a training captain on the jump seat? NEVER!!! So it can't be right can it?
It didn't happen all the time obviously, but it should never have happened at all.
I appreciate that airlines vary and I should hope that the likes of BA have more favourable roster patterns than the budget airlines.
It was never about quality of pilots - I've flown with test pilots and ex-BA, RAF, Army, Navy, Virgin, Singapore airline pilots for example - some of the best around. But no matter your background or training we are all humans and (most) humans need adequate rest.
Deprive them of that rest and people cannot act at their best day-in day-out no matter who they are.
I've had one of two near misses due primarily to the fatigue of either myself or the other pilot which now I have 'retired' are of anecdotal interest only. If the passengers had only known how close to death they were!
Not sensationalism, just airline experiences during several years in the job.
It's no life either being constantly tired - with all the stress that places on relationships. Most of my contemporaries were either single or divorced. I know 'happy' relationships exist but in my experience they are few and far between (if everyone is honest to their partner!!!). Stress causes more stress.
Some examples:
Captain fell asleep due to fatigue - when awoken he had no recollection of the flight (didn't wake him because a thought it better he was awake for the approach rather than the cruise);
Captain misread the approach plate and I was too tired to spot the error. 50 people were almost killed as we descended to within a few hundred feet of the ground in cloud;
Captain (ex-RAF instructor) told me to take control as he was so tired he needed to sleep. He slept for 90% of the 3 hour sector to Spain. Awake for only the take-off climb and approach;
'Colourful' airline ops called to say crew were tired and needed to complete duty in AMS - also over Captain's Discretion. Vote taken and all crew agreed ops should be informed. We were told either to complete the duty or change aircraft and fly the shorter sector to Luton. Then get a taxi home (5 hrs in total) - Hobson's choice. In the end we flew back to base. Tired and out of hours (try the Piltdown Man approach in that situation).
Stories abound and in this case most are not exaggerated - but the vast majority are never told - what happens in 'Vegas stays in 'Vegas!
The effect of age has an affect too (of course). No doubt that is one of the reasons BA pilots are retired at age 55. Where do they go then - the likes of easyjet and Ryanair of course! Five to ten more years to build up their pensions, live a good life, or pay off the wife/wives and provide maintenance for the children.
As we all know CAP371 was never designed for this method of working. The winners are the passengers. Let's hope no one reading this is ever killed by a fatigue related accident. Maybe they and the family they left behind might wish they'd paid for a more expense ticket?
Maybe the airline that tends to charge for every extra imaginable could charge an extra €10 to guarantee a 'fatigue-free' crew!
FOK
Firstly, no disrespect.
I don't know if you fly or with whom, but if you try that approach with the low-cost carriers it is, in my experience, unlikely to succeed.
I hope the carriers have changed in the past few years, but if either flightdeck or cabin crew with a certain 'colourful' airline tried the trick of reporting 'sick' on a regular basis action was taken against them. Heaven forbid you told the truth and said you were fatigued because you were working five or six days 4 or 6 sector days on the trot! I got very tired having worked a minimum 12 hour day, then an hours' drive each way each day. That left 10 hours 'home time' of which, by necessity, at least 8 hours was asleep. So 2 hours at home awake max. No wonder I binned airline flying in the end. It just wasn't safe when the (then) Captains were falling asleep and expecting me to be sufficently awake to do the navigation, 'flying' and RT - and eat and complete the plog and talk to the pax. Was it unsafe? I don't know. Would we have passed a sim detail or carried on like that with a training captain on the jump seat? NEVER!!! So it can't be right can it?
It didn't happen all the time obviously, but it should never have happened at all.
I appreciate that airlines vary and I should hope that the likes of BA have more favourable roster patterns than the budget airlines.
It was never about quality of pilots - I've flown with test pilots and ex-BA, RAF, Army, Navy, Virgin, Singapore airline pilots for example - some of the best around. But no matter your background or training we are all humans and (most) humans need adequate rest.
Deprive them of that rest and people cannot act at their best day-in day-out no matter who they are.
I've had one of two near misses due primarily to the fatigue of either myself or the other pilot which now I have 'retired' are of anecdotal interest only. If the passengers had only known how close to death they were!
Not sensationalism, just airline experiences during several years in the job.
It's no life either being constantly tired - with all the stress that places on relationships. Most of my contemporaries were either single or divorced. I know 'happy' relationships exist but in my experience they are few and far between (if everyone is honest to their partner!!!). Stress causes more stress.
Some examples:
Captain fell asleep due to fatigue - when awoken he had no recollection of the flight (didn't wake him because a thought it better he was awake for the approach rather than the cruise);
Captain misread the approach plate and I was too tired to spot the error. 50 people were almost killed as we descended to within a few hundred feet of the ground in cloud;
Captain (ex-RAF instructor) told me to take control as he was so tired he needed to sleep. He slept for 90% of the 3 hour sector to Spain. Awake for only the take-off climb and approach;
'Colourful' airline ops called to say crew were tired and needed to complete duty in AMS - also over Captain's Discretion. Vote taken and all crew agreed ops should be informed. We were told either to complete the duty or change aircraft and fly the shorter sector to Luton. Then get a taxi home (5 hrs in total) - Hobson's choice. In the end we flew back to base. Tired and out of hours (try the Piltdown Man approach in that situation).
Stories abound and in this case most are not exaggerated - but the vast majority are never told - what happens in 'Vegas stays in 'Vegas!
The effect of age has an affect too (of course). No doubt that is one of the reasons BA pilots are retired at age 55. Where do they go then - the likes of easyjet and Ryanair of course! Five to ten more years to build up their pensions, live a good life, or pay off the wife/wives and provide maintenance for the children.
As we all know CAP371 was never designed for this method of working. The winners are the passengers. Let's hope no one reading this is ever killed by a fatigue related accident. Maybe they and the family they left behind might wish they'd paid for a more expense ticket?
Maybe the airline that tends to charge for every extra imaginable could charge an extra €10 to guarantee a 'fatigue-free' crew!
FOK
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One wonders if patients would be irritated if their GP's fell asleep during their consultations, or perhaps, surgeons, during their operations?
The average GP is now paid £106K according to the Telegraph a few days ago...
I'm paid nowhere near that...
The average GP is now paid £106K according to the Telegraph a few days ago...
I'm paid nowhere near that...
FlyingOfficerKite
It sounds like you are talking about the same colourful loco that I've been employed by for the last 3 years. I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to.
Perhaps you left more than 3 years ago?
I've been tired at work, but 9 times out of 10 it's my fault as I've been up doing stuff when I should be going to bed. Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for.
I've had one captain that I can recall suddenly kick out the z's without warning. This captain was well known for it amongst other FO's and he also did lots of flying instruction on the side so he was probably burning the candle at both ends.
If we do feel tired we are allowed to take "controlled rest". That means you can close your eyes for 20 minutes and the other person knows what you are doing.
If we use the word fatigued we are off the flight with no questions asked. If you continually do it they will obviously start asking questions. How far do you drive in? Do you do other work on the side? Does the baby keep you up all night? These are things that an individual must manage and they are not the companies responsibility.
I'm not saying the job doesn't get tiring because like any job you will be more tired by the end of your working week. But if it's too much, just call in fatigued. Most people complain about early starts but they don't cause me a problem, I find the 5 days of 10 - 11 hour, 4 sector late duties the most fatiguing.
To summarise, I don't want to suggest that everything is rosy as it is hard work, it is tiring and we definitely could not have any relaxation of the current rules. But your depiction of the colourful loco is not accurate, at least not post 2007.
It sounds like you are talking about the same colourful loco that I've been employed by for the last 3 years. I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to.
Perhaps you left more than 3 years ago?
I've been tired at work, but 9 times out of 10 it's my fault as I've been up doing stuff when I should be going to bed. Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for.
I've had one captain that I can recall suddenly kick out the z's without warning. This captain was well known for it amongst other FO's and he also did lots of flying instruction on the side so he was probably burning the candle at both ends.
If we do feel tired we are allowed to take "controlled rest". That means you can close your eyes for 20 minutes and the other person knows what you are doing.
If we use the word fatigued we are off the flight with no questions asked. If you continually do it they will obviously start asking questions. How far do you drive in? Do you do other work on the side? Does the baby keep you up all night? These are things that an individual must manage and they are not the companies responsibility.
I'm not saying the job doesn't get tiring because like any job you will be more tired by the end of your working week. But if it's too much, just call in fatigued. Most people complain about early starts but they don't cause me a problem, I find the 5 days of 10 - 11 hour, 4 sector late duties the most fatiguing.
To summarise, I don't want to suggest that everything is rosy as it is hard work, it is tiring and we definitely could not have any relaxation of the current rules. But your depiction of the colourful loco is not accurate, at least not post 2007.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because this is EU legislation it will override national legislation and protocals - so CAP 371 etc will cease to exist. All of you with wonderfull FTL agrements will find them replaced by EASA legislation and you will not have a legal leg to stand on.
Action must be taken now to alter the legislation so that it acounts for the overwhelming medical evidence regarding fatigue.
This is our only chance to do somthing because the people who draw this stuff up don't care about evidence or facts ( they ignored their own reports) they just care about looking good passing all these laws and earning brownie points.
Companies will alter their FTL rule to the lowest available as soon as they can unless we do somthing now.
Question since when was I not allowed to protest when off duty? The police managed it so why cant we? Not that we live in one of the more restrictive western democracies.
Action must be taken now to alter the legislation so that it acounts for the overwhelming medical evidence regarding fatigue.
This is our only chance to do somthing because the people who draw this stuff up don't care about evidence or facts ( they ignored their own reports) they just care about looking good passing all these laws and earning brownie points.
Companies will alter their FTL rule to the lowest available as soon as they can unless we do somthing now.
Question since when was I not allowed to protest when off duty? The police managed it so why cant we? Not that we live in one of the more restrictive western democracies.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SR 71 - doctors falling asleep?
when my wife had to go into hospital late one night the junior doctor who did the initial examination fell asleep on her feet whilst briefing the consultant!
so yes they have very fatiguing hour all in the name of geting trainee doctors to see as many patients as possible.
when my wife had to go into hospital late one night the junior doctor who did the initial examination fell asleep on her feet whilst briefing the consultant!
so yes they have very fatiguing hour all in the name of geting trainee doctors to see as many patients as possible.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PT6 Driver
As i understand it a UK Airline could apply for CAP371 as a derogation when EASA kicks in?. Why didnt any UK Airline apply for sub part Q when it came into effect?
Piltdown Man
Don't suppose you could find out what your Union / Airlines thoughts would be for the taxman of offering accomodation at home base after a lengthy duty. I presume the crew member makes no contribution to the cost of hotac?
As i understand it a UK Airline could apply for CAP371 as a derogation when EASA kicks in?. Why didnt any UK Airline apply for sub part Q when it came into effect?
Piltdown Man
Don't suppose you could find out what your Union / Airlines thoughts would be for the taxman of offering accomodation at home base after a lengthy duty. I presume the crew member makes no contribution to the cost of hotac?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Total costs absorbed by the company as this expense was a incurred wholly as a result work after a long and unplanned duty. No tax liability. However, we are also able to swap the Hotac for a Taxi fare home, again no tax liability.
And chaps, are you guys (FOK in particular) telling me that Lo-Cos's are dangerous airlines to fly with because the crews may be fatigued and prefer to fly in this condition than call in sick? If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for.
If we want any understanding from the public we must be able to show that we have integrity.
PM
And chaps, are you guys (FOK in particular) telling me that Lo-Cos's are dangerous airlines to fly with because the crews may be fatigued and prefer to fly in this condition than call in sick? If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for.
If we want any understanding from the public we must be able to show that we have integrity.
PM
Thread Starter
Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for.
I think there is also some difference between short term tiredness due to lack of sleep and long term "battle fatigue" caused by weeks of irregular rosters.