AF Asks DL to Assess Safety Issues
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AF Asks DL to Assess Safety Issues
This is in no way a knock on AF... but this Wall Street Journal article notes that there are apparently significant tensions within the company. And several years back, the top to bottom review that Delta did for Korean Air (which has been published on the web) was a fascinating read, especially in the way the review dealt with cultural differences in CRM.
Air France Asks Delta to Help Assess Safety Practices - WSJ.com
The full article requires a paid suscription so here is the majority of it:
"PARIS -- Air France has taken the unusual step of asking U.S. partner Delta Air Lines Inc. to help assess its internal safety practices following the crash of an Air France jetliner in June that killed 228 people.
"We have asked our American partner to conduct an external analysis," said Véronique Brachet, a spokeswoman for the French carrier. But she said talks with Delta, which has a marketing alliance with Air France, haven't been finalized.
A Delta spokeswoman declined to comment.
Air France Chief Executive Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said in a recent interview that the Air France-KLM SA unit would commission outside analysts to review its safety practices, in part because the crash remains unsolved. Mr. Gourgeon wants these analysts to do a top-to-bottom review and come up with a handful of big ideas to help Air France improve its long-term approach to safety.
"Safety is a dynamic thing," he said. "The risk is to say, 'We've done our work, so let's stop.'"
French search teams have been unable to locate wreckage of the Air France Airbus A330, which plunged from high altitude into deep waters about halfway between Brazil and Senegal. As a result, it remains unclear what role various factors played in the crash. Bad weather, technical problems and pilot error are all suspected of having contributed, but without more evidence, the airline and regulators are stymied in efforts to prevent a recurrence.
The crash has focused attention on Air France's safety record and pilot training. The carrier has had four significant accidents since 1999. Mr. Gourgeon said that before the crash, Air France's accident record was better than the global airline-industry average but now is average.
Mr. Gourgeon said the crash has been traumatic for employees and has increased tensions within the airline. He said that since the accident, Air France has seen a slight uptick in absenteeism among long-haul flight attendants. He acknowledged the airline has been repeatedly criticized by some of its smaller pilots unions for perceived safety lapses.
Gérard Arnoux, head of SPAF, one of those small unions, said: "There is a problem with our safety culture. Our ranking is not good."
Mr. Gourgeon said he hopes the planned analysis will address such concerns. He said the cause of the crash may never be known, so Air France is addressing a broad range of possible problems behind it. "Even if we don't know the reason, people must be certain that no stone has been left unturned," he said.
Delta has a strong safety record. Its namesake carrier hasn't had an accident or significant safety incident since 1998, according to the Aviation Safety Network, a Web site that tracks such events. But Delta's Comair unit had a fatal crash in 2006.
In the late 1990s, Korean Air, then plagued by safety lapses, tackled those problems in part by enlisting Delta's aid; Delta, which had refused to sell tickets on Korean Air flights, conducted a safety audit for the carrier. But rarely, if ever, has a major Western airline like Air France turned to another for safety recommendations.
Since the June crash, Air France has already increased pilot training and altered some of its safety routines, Mr. Gourgeon said."
Air France Asks Delta to Help Assess Safety Practices - WSJ.com
The full article requires a paid suscription so here is the majority of it:
"PARIS -- Air France has taken the unusual step of asking U.S. partner Delta Air Lines Inc. to help assess its internal safety practices following the crash of an Air France jetliner in June that killed 228 people.
"We have asked our American partner to conduct an external analysis," said Véronique Brachet, a spokeswoman for the French carrier. But she said talks with Delta, which has a marketing alliance with Air France, haven't been finalized.
A Delta spokeswoman declined to comment.
Air France Chief Executive Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said in a recent interview that the Air France-KLM SA unit would commission outside analysts to review its safety practices, in part because the crash remains unsolved. Mr. Gourgeon wants these analysts to do a top-to-bottom review and come up with a handful of big ideas to help Air France improve its long-term approach to safety.
"Safety is a dynamic thing," he said. "The risk is to say, 'We've done our work, so let's stop.'"
French search teams have been unable to locate wreckage of the Air France Airbus A330, which plunged from high altitude into deep waters about halfway between Brazil and Senegal. As a result, it remains unclear what role various factors played in the crash. Bad weather, technical problems and pilot error are all suspected of having contributed, but without more evidence, the airline and regulators are stymied in efforts to prevent a recurrence.
The crash has focused attention on Air France's safety record and pilot training. The carrier has had four significant accidents since 1999. Mr. Gourgeon said that before the crash, Air France's accident record was better than the global airline-industry average but now is average.
Mr. Gourgeon said the crash has been traumatic for employees and has increased tensions within the airline. He said that since the accident, Air France has seen a slight uptick in absenteeism among long-haul flight attendants. He acknowledged the airline has been repeatedly criticized by some of its smaller pilots unions for perceived safety lapses.
Gérard Arnoux, head of SPAF, one of those small unions, said: "There is a problem with our safety culture. Our ranking is not good."
Mr. Gourgeon said he hopes the planned analysis will address such concerns. He said the cause of the crash may never be known, so Air France is addressing a broad range of possible problems behind it. "Even if we don't know the reason, people must be certain that no stone has been left unturned," he said.
Delta has a strong safety record. Its namesake carrier hasn't had an accident or significant safety incident since 1998, according to the Aviation Safety Network, a Web site that tracks such events. But Delta's Comair unit had a fatal crash in 2006.
In the late 1990s, Korean Air, then plagued by safety lapses, tackled those problems in part by enlisting Delta's aid; Delta, which had refused to sell tickets on Korean Air flights, conducted a safety audit for the carrier. But rarely, if ever, has a major Western airline like Air France turned to another for safety recommendations.
Since the June crash, Air France has already increased pilot training and altered some of its safety routines, Mr. Gourgeon said."
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Mr. Gourgeon said that before the crash, Air France's accident record was better than the global airline-industry average but now is average.
This............let's call it an audit has been called by the...........yeah........small unions as the magic bullet and I think this is a farce.
What isn't however, is Mr Gourgeon's quote. If I were a victim's relative, I'd have my blood boil instantly and I think the man simply put his foot into his mouth and makes me very embarassed.
All the last years major incidents have had nothing to do with a so called faulty in house safety culture. It had to do with people screwing the pooch, plain and simple and it happened to me too.
I am not taking 447 into account as there is definitly more than meets the eye on this one and we know close to nothing.
For the life of me, I can find no quote in our manuals that says, " Thou shall land midrunway in the middle of storm and over run it so you can end up a mess in front of CNN " and so forth as I do not wish to list the freak show we've witnessed these last few years.
I think what we lack is both discipline and plain boring right there in the manual common sense. Screw flamboyance and pig headed minded.
As President Bush senior once said " What's wrong with being boring ? "
Interesting that they wouldn't turn to KLM for this. Too many internal boardroom issues for that to happen ?
Interesting that they wouldn't turn to KLM for this. Too many internal boardroom issues for that to happen ?
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The audit will be for external consumption. A few minor recommendations, satisfying any public concerns. And back to business as usual. Having an owned carrier (like KLM) do this audit would negate the purpose of it.
Last edited by Otterman; 18th Sep 2009 at 14:10.
Well I've done plenty of "external independent consultancies/audits/reports" over time. The key aspects to get into such a study are nothing to do with the facts of the situation, but are :
1. Facts and opinions that the client who commissioned the work and will be signing the cheque is comfortable with, rather than uncomfortable with.
2. Something that will ensure repeat business in this area.
3. Maximum revenue/billing to the project.
This is generally known as "Project Management".
It may be that what you say to the board is a bit different to the public version, but it still has to comply with the above. If you want to tell the board that their managers are incompetent then you have to know that the board will go along with that rather than argue against it with you.
1. Facts and opinions that the client who commissioned the work and will be signing the cheque is comfortable with, rather than uncomfortable with.
2. Something that will ensure repeat business in this area.
3. Maximum revenue/billing to the project.
This is generally known as "Project Management".
It may be that what you say to the board is a bit different to the public version, but it still has to comply with the above. If you want to tell the board that their managers are incompetent then you have to know that the board will go along with that rather than argue against it with you.
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I've seen similar 'audits' too (though not in the Airline field) - the now defunct 'Accounting firm' Arthur Anderson used to do those kinds of audits* all the time 
But wouldnt Delta's be different?
Can anybody find any paperwork from Delta's interaction with a similar job done with Korean airlines?
*
But wouldnt Delta's be different?
Can anybody find any paperwork from Delta's interaction with a similar job done with Korean airlines?
*
Arthur Andersen LLP, based in Chicago, was once one of the "Big Five" accounting firms among PricewaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, Ernst & Young and KPMG, providing auditing, tax, and consulting services to large corporations. In 2002, the firm voluntarily surrendered its licenses to practice as Certified Public Accountants in the United States after being found guilty of criminal charges relating to the firm's handling of the auditing of Enron, the energy corporation, resulting in the loss of 85,000 jobs. Although the verdict was subsequently overturned by the Supreme Court of the United States, it has not returned as a viable business.
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It's one thing to hire some little guy consultant - whoever pays the piper picks the tune.
It would be a major disaster for DL to issue a whitewash report like some here are implying, and if another AF crash happens - then what? A lot of AF flights are code shared with DL, and lawyers would rip DL to shreds - and they'd be right. The Arthur Andersen scenario is pertinent. It used to be a $9bln company. It's gone.
It would be a major disaster for DL to issue a whitewash report like some here are implying, and if another AF crash happens - then what? A lot of AF flights are code shared with DL, and lawyers would rip DL to shreds - and they'd be right. The Arthur Andersen scenario is pertinent. It used to be a $9bln company. It's gone.
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Can anybody find any paperwork from Delta's interaction with a similar job done with Korean airlines?
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The Delta audit of Korean has been removed from the net but is still in th PPRUNE archives:
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/korean.html
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/korean.html
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We've discussed it here many times before but the findings in this so-called 'Delta' audit document were the inputs of a later fired Australian training captain, not the work of a Deltoid.
Some of it is very good procedure, other parts delve deeply into technique and opinion.
Some of it is very good procedure, other parts delve deeply into technique and opinion.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
All the last years major incidents have had nothing to do with a so called faulty in house safety culture. It had to do with people screwing the pooch, plain and simple and it happened to me too.
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Sleeper, thanks for finding the Delta safety audit done a decade ago on Korean. I haven't read it for many years, but it is still an exhaustive but fascinating document. I believe that it was probably this audit that in part led to the AF board to seek DL's help on their possible safety issues. DL's last passenger fatalities occurred in a 1996 MD88 uncontained engine explosion on the takeoff roll in Pensacola. Two passengers seated adjacent to the engine lost their lives.
Here is a 2001 article briefly dealing with the DL safety program:
Safety Strategy Focuses on Little Things to Prevent Big Catastrophe | Air Safety Week | Find Articles at BNET
Here is a 2001 article briefly dealing with the DL safety program:
Safety Strategy Focuses on Little Things to Prevent Big Catastrophe | Air Safety Week | Find Articles at BNET
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We've discussed it here many times before but the findings in this so-called 'Delta' audit document were the inputs of a later fired Australian training captain, not the work of a Deltoid.
I thought it odd that a Delta report would contain the word torch.
Me Myself:
You wrote, " . . . Thou shall land mid-runway in the middle of storm and over run it so you can end up a mess in front of CNN"
I'm not sure if you are saying that you think the crew on that day (AF358, YYZ) were "screwing the pooch", but if so, you are wrong. That accident -- like most -- was the result of many factors, including everything from AF SOP's, ATC procedures, YYZ Airport Authority procedures, Wx, comms, training (including AF, Nav Canada, and YYZ Airport Authority training). Holes were lining up in that particular cheese long before that day. A lot more started lining up in the 30 mins before the accident. By the time the aircraft was on final, dozens of holes were lined up and ready . . .
Grizz
You wrote, " . . . Thou shall land mid-runway in the middle of storm and over run it so you can end up a mess in front of CNN"
I'm not sure if you are saying that you think the crew on that day (AF358, YYZ) were "screwing the pooch", but if so, you are wrong. That accident -- like most -- was the result of many factors, including everything from AF SOP's, ATC procedures, YYZ Airport Authority procedures, Wx, comms, training (including AF, Nav Canada, and YYZ Airport Authority training). Holes were lining up in that particular cheese long before that day. A lot more started lining up in the 30 mins before the accident. By the time the aircraft was on final, dozens of holes were lined up and ready . . .
Grizz