Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus
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A superior pilot
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the adage which defines a superior pilot as one who uses his superior airmanship knowledge to avoid situations where he will be called upon to demonstrate his superior flying skills.
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Quote: "If you fly them by hand, in the 737 you have to pull to raise the nose. So you have in the 320. In both you have to push to lower de nose. And so on. The only difference is in the autotrim (which makes it easier) and the lack of feel. You still have to decide if you need to pitch up or down." unquote
You think it is any different in the larger B777?
The only difference is the lack of stretches in longhaul operations.
However, I find that doing manual climbouts and approaches at every opportunity keeps my flying skill up to date, even in long haul.
You think it is any different in the larger B777?
The only difference is the lack of stretches in longhaul operations.
However, I find that doing manual climbouts and approaches at every opportunity keeps my flying skill up to date, even in long haul.
This week I did my first flight in 61 days. I am rather fortunate that quite a lot of our flights end with visuals or V/S + HDG SEL flown NDB-DME or VOR-DME approaches that require you to think. If I was only doing big cities instead of small islands in a 757 then I'd be reeeeeally worried.
Maybe a few hours per year in a light aircraft would be a good thing to introduce as part of a commercial licence revalidation?
"You might need a little more rudder, sir"
"What?"
"More rudder, sir. Look at the slip ball."
"The who?"
"Slip ball, sir, down there, showing you that we're yawing."
"Hey! We have those on the 'Bus. I think so, anyway, maybe somewhere down over on the F/O's side. Oh! You're trying to tell me that the autorudder has failed?"
"No sir, you need to put rudder in yourself."
"Manual rudder? Are you telling me that all 4 systems have failed???"
"You have 4 on the Airbus, then?"
"Naw, just 3 and an F/O. Hey, these PA28-140s run out of airspeed real quick, don't they."
"Maybe you might want to take your shoes off the instrument panel and start peddling, sir"
"I have control, sir."
Maybe a few hours per year in a light aircraft would be a good thing to introduce as part of a commercial licence revalidation?
"You might need a little more rudder, sir"
"What?"
"More rudder, sir. Look at the slip ball."
"The who?"
"Slip ball, sir, down there, showing you that we're yawing."
"Hey! We have those on the 'Bus. I think so, anyway, maybe somewhere down over on the F/O's side. Oh! You're trying to tell me that the autorudder has failed?"
"No sir, you need to put rudder in yourself."
"Manual rudder? Are you telling me that all 4 systems have failed???"
"You have 4 on the Airbus, then?"
"Naw, just 3 and an F/O. Hey, these PA28-140s run out of airspeed real quick, don't they."
"Maybe you might want to take your shoes off the instrument panel and start peddling, sir"
"I have control, sir."
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If you fly them by hand, in the 737 you have to pull to raise the nose. So you have in the 320. In both you have to push to lower de nose. And so on. The only difference is in the autotrim (which makes it easier) and the lack of feel. You still have to decide if you need to pitch up or down.
Brave new world, and on top of that it seems by reading some contributions, a much venerated brave new world!
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pool
it's true that the bus has had a few problems, like the 320 in LEBB that did not flare well because of a badly designed software in the computers. And who knows what else is hidden in those code lines...
Sometimes those computers can be such bastards... But the required skill to hand fly it is not much different from a conventional airplane. Autotrim makes it a little bit more boring, and you have less aerodynamical direct to the brain-information (no feel). the bus is not like a CWS. And it is does not maintain flight path like an ILS without inputs. Believe me, i did the test one day (normal conditions) and it goes away and away. A properly trimmed 73 probably will stay better on the glidepath.
I hate those smileys. They are used without reason most of the times.
it's true that the bus has had a few problems, like the 320 in LEBB that did not flare well because of a badly designed software in the computers. And who knows what else is hidden in those code lines...
Sometimes those computers can be such bastards... But the required skill to hand fly it is not much different from a conventional airplane. Autotrim makes it a little bit more boring, and you have less aerodynamical direct to the brain-information (no feel). the bus is not like a CWS. And it is does not maintain flight path like an ILS without inputs. Believe me, i did the test one day (normal conditions) and it goes away and away. A properly trimmed 73 probably will stay better on the glidepath.
I hate those
smileys. They are used without reason most of the times.
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Barbie
"had to slide his seat forward and got to work." I hope this is not literally true cos he should have had it right where it was needed if he was PF! However, I've seen lots of it from auto-complacent pilots - many of them experienced Captains. A sudden failure of the automatics (in the sim in a climbing turn) usually brings a healthy does of reality after the first WTHIT!
You're all correct guys. In short, know your aeroplane - autoflight and manual and keep your skills up on both. Use automation when it's sensible and handfly also when the weather and circumsances are suitable.
"had to slide his seat forward and got to work." I hope this is not literally true cos he should have had it right where it was needed if he was PF! However, I've seen lots of it from auto-complacent pilots - many of them experienced Captains. A sudden failure of the automatics (in the sim in a climbing turn) usually brings a healthy does of reality after the first WTHIT!
You're all correct guys. In short, know your aeroplane - autoflight and manual and keep your skills up on both. Use automation when it's sensible and handfly also when the weather and circumsances are suitable.
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and handfly also when the weather and circumsances are suitable.
How does one define when "weather and circumstances are unsuitable? After all, before the advent of super-cool automatics it was normal procedure for airline crews to fly Cat One ILS by hand. Now anything less than 1000 ft cloud base is considered auto-coupled material with flight directors and autothrottle and don't forget the autobrakes! As some wit observed on a previous forum, pilots have become data input processors, rather than airmen. A modicum of truth in that..
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That is why I spent my last seven years flying to TGU, Honduras. At 2700 ft. AGL autopilot and autothrottle were off and the circle to land was hand flown. Along with EGPWS off. It really is nice to fly with no automation to enjoy the old way of doing things. It is very satisfying to know you are really flying the airplane. It is quite easy actually. Just fly like a pilot, not a computer operator. I had a couple of flights in a P51 Mustang with one of my students when I was instructing in Chino Ca. He was my best student ever and I believe the best pilot I have ever flown with, including myself. His name is Steve Hinton, he starts the unlimited air race at Reno every year. I see him every year at Reno and treasure the time we flew together. He quit the airlines to go back to warbirds because he loved to fly back in the 70's. Those flights with him and our dogfight rolling around each other with another P51 with a picture with my roomate pilot always will be on my wall behind my computer. I got my thrills mostly in a B757 but he did it all.
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losing flying skills
Ihave been flying all my life the conventional ac but then the transition was not easy in my company the kids would always want to fly raw data for practice and we have various problems let the technology do for what it is designed fo
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As some wit observed on a previous forum, pilots have become data input processors, rather than airmen. A modicum of truth in that..
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In sea ships, Captains do not steer since many centuries ago. And they were masters or their ships, commanding them by the means of their voice.
Aiplanes are not ships, however, and move very fast, and in 3D. That is why pilots should be perfectly able to steer them by hand just as well as by handling the automation.
Aiplanes are not ships, however, and move very fast, and in 3D. That is why pilots should be perfectly able to steer them by hand just as well as by handling the automation.
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what would you suggest?
--when the company that pays my check, states that any ceiling below 1000 -we must use the auto landing?
i think it is stupid, but there you go--two stupids won't make a right. (ignoring the company ops specs)
they also tell us to put 10 degree bank when above 30,000 feet because some idiots couldn't tell when they could and couldn't bank twenty five degrees without getting into the stick shaker at altitude, so they 'dumb it down' to the lowest possible denominator. the horror they must feel when cleared to FL300!!!!????
also, 250 knots below 10,000 when descending, (allowed climbing) because some idiots can't manage their aircraft energy.
we are forced into becoming less proficient.
we do what we can--but i can still see the degradation of my own skills-i am such a slut--to keep a good paying job.
i think it is stupid, but there you go--two stupids won't make a right. (ignoring the company ops specs)
they also tell us to put 10 degree bank when above 30,000 feet because some idiots couldn't tell when they could and couldn't bank twenty five degrees without getting into the stick shaker at altitude, so they 'dumb it down' to the lowest possible denominator. the horror they must feel when cleared to FL300!!!!????
also, 250 knots below 10,000 when descending, (allowed climbing) because some idiots can't manage their aircraft energy.
we are forced into becoming less proficient.
we do what we can--but i can still see the degradation of my own skills-i am such a slut--to keep a good paying job.
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Quote:
--when the company that pays my check, states that any ceiling below 1000 -we must use the auto landing?
Yes you must adhere to company rules.
Isn't it strange though that you have to make an autoland with a ceiling of 900 feet, but have no option on a nonprecision approach with a ceiling of 600 feet. In the latter case , by your company rules, you cannot land?!
Offcourse you will bring it in. But again strange that in the best of circumstances you have to make an autoland, while in the worst case (circling?) you can only do it manually!
--when the company that pays my check, states that any ceiling below 1000 -we must use the auto landing?
Yes you must adhere to company rules.
Isn't it strange though that you have to make an autoland with a ceiling of 900 feet, but have no option on a nonprecision approach with a ceiling of 600 feet. In the latter case , by your company rules, you cannot land?!
Offcourse you will bring it in. But again strange that in the best of circumstances you have to make an autoland, while in the worst case (circling?) you can only do it manually!
And so should there commanders.
Suggest the rank should be upgraded to "General" and his chum in the RH seat a "Co-General". That would distinguish them quite rightly from the lower classes of airline pilots.
Of course we could also go back to original ranks of just Pilot and Second Pilot. Nothing flash - but just a plain statement of our job.
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As some wit observed on a previous forum, pilots have become data input processors, rather than airmen. A modicum of truth in that..
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"--when the company that pays my check, states that any ceiling below 1000 -we must use the auto landing?"
Where does this come from ands why? Not all ILS's are CAT2/3 approved. At 1000' the ILS will not be protected. Thus you'd be making a practice CAT2/3. Are you sure this is an SOP limitation. It does seem OTT.
Where does this come from ands why? Not all ILS's are CAT2/3 approved. At 1000' the ILS will not be protected. Thus you'd be making a practice CAT2/3. Are you sure this is an SOP limitation. It does seem OTT.
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part of the problem--
if the airport has the capability--auto land if not-'monitored' approach-- which currently means first officer flies the approach-single autopilot and then the captain manually lands-in my estimation-a silly transfer of pilot flying at a moment that might not be the best-and since the autopilot has been flying the approach-the captain must disconnect and suddenly become one with the aircraft and take it the rest of the way in. where, in my humble opinion and experience, i find that i am more in tune with the control pressures needed to keep the beast lined up with the localizer after hand flying a bit-rather than 'come in' at the finale with no warm up on your 'guitar'--
perhaps experience can become an obstacle at times---
when tired and on the last of four back into where the weather comes down unexpectly, another factor that complicates what otherwise should be a simple matter--is the tendency to 'remember' and the need to 'forget' all the different ways that monitored approaches have been defined and flown over the years.
after 6 airlines, all on the 737, my head must swim through all the different procedures, which each airline thought was the gospel at the time-and try to remember the ways things are to be done 'tonight.'
to be totally honest, at times, i have to turn to the right and ask--'what is the procedure this month?'
funny how in the QRH where they state the requirements for certain approaches and the weather conditions that trigger such requirements-yet they omit the very simple yet critical thing of the actual minimums of those specific approaches. and funny how we still do heights in feet but visibilities and everything else in metres.
any old dinosaur will think things were better in the past---
and i will close with a gentle reminder to all the new and young pilots coming up in the right seat--you will be a dinosaur before long and make some of the same complaints that you hear us older pilots make. and we should both be 'gentle' with each other and admit that we have much to learn from each other and we can if we keep talking rather than judging.
perhaps experience can become an obstacle at times---
when tired and on the last of four back into where the weather comes down unexpectly, another factor that complicates what otherwise should be a simple matter--is the tendency to 'remember' and the need to 'forget' all the different ways that monitored approaches have been defined and flown over the years.
after 6 airlines, all on the 737, my head must swim through all the different procedures, which each airline thought was the gospel at the time-and try to remember the ways things are to be done 'tonight.'
to be totally honest, at times, i have to turn to the right and ask--'what is the procedure this month?'
funny how in the QRH where they state the requirements for certain approaches and the weather conditions that trigger such requirements-yet they omit the very simple yet critical thing of the actual minimums of those specific approaches. and funny how we still do heights in feet but visibilities and everything else in metres.
any old dinosaur will think things were better in the past---
and i will close with a gentle reminder to all the new and young pilots coming up in the right seat--you will be a dinosaur before long and make some of the same complaints that you hear us older pilots make. and we should both be 'gentle' with each other and admit that we have much to learn from each other and we can if we keep talking rather than judging.
YouTube - BAC-111 Cockpit 
and the FO is a master on that CDI, his bracketing is impeccable,...I can't tell if he's LOC/SDF or VOR
like two professionals just dickin' around the practice grounds on Sunday,...so dangerous
and the FO is a master on that CDI, his bracketing is impeccable,...I can't tell if he's LOC/SDF or VOR
like two professionals just dickin' around the practice grounds on Sunday,...so dangerous
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 4th Feb 2010 at 00:14.
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YEAH we know!
AIRBUS ...
They make airplanes that need machine minders, then they turn round and say they need pilot skills!
OK heres a good deal: with every Airbus airplane they sell give out 10 sail planes free.
They make airplanes that need machine minders, then they turn round and say they need pilot skills!
OK heres a good deal: with every Airbus airplane they sell give out 10 sail planes free.