British Airways Regional merge with CitiExpress
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A few years ago, I did my Masters thesis in Air Transport Management on the effects of franchising in European airlines.
In it, I said that there was a good case to be made for strong brands - such as BA, Lufthansa (and at the time, Swissair) franchising out <b>all</b> of their operations (cargo, regional, short/medium haul and long haul) to other companies, meaning that BA could downsize to about 20 people who would provide leased aircraft, manage the brand and quality control, and count the steady stream of cash.
No risks, no worries about declining markets, no passengers, no staff. Little in the way of expenditure; lots in the way of income.
We're talking management Utopia here, people!
Properly managed, this would well be the way of the future. I'm convinced that this was pretty much what Bob Ayling's Master Plan was, with the World Images and franchisees from Scandinavia to South Africa; and I suspect that Rod may have found a copy of it and has dusted it off.
In it, I said that there was a good case to be made for strong brands - such as BA, Lufthansa (and at the time, Swissair) franchising out <b>all</b> of their operations (cargo, regional, short/medium haul and long haul) to other companies, meaning that BA could downsize to about 20 people who would provide leased aircraft, manage the brand and quality control, and count the steady stream of cash.
No risks, no worries about declining markets, no passengers, no staff. Little in the way of expenditure; lots in the way of income.
We're talking management Utopia here, people!
Properly managed, this would well be the way of the future. I'm convinced that this was pretty much what Bob Ayling's Master Plan was, with the World Images and franchisees from Scandinavia to South Africa; and I suspect that Rod may have found a copy of it and has dusted it off.
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The 319 is an excellent aircraft and the passengers love it. However, its operating costs are v. high compared to an Embraer (which is CAT 2) and over the last year BAR BHX profits have declined by around 90 %. Used to be a cash cow but not any more. If it were your business you would do something about it. You would probably do exactly what BA are doing.
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Well what can i say ....starting of R308R i think you are a sad spotter finding out things like EGPWS and whatever the other thing was but i think you havent done your homework quite well because wether you can get to your destination even if its too foggy to see where ur going depends on the destination field as well.Some airports are only Cat1 some up to Cat2 and some even Cat3...so do your homework better next time before you start talking astronomy..Yes the airbus is a great a/c but on routes where you only get 40 pax it will not do profit but a 50 seater jet will from something like 30% full...I think what they are trying to do makes sense and its good for the future..
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I'd just like to point out that I still work for Brymon as the merger with us and BRAL hasn't been completed yet! No new terms and conditions have been forwarded to us so the announcement on the 5th was our first idea what they would be. I feel sorry for the BAR crews (both flight and cabin)if indeed they have to accept lower terms & conditions. How will this work in the grand scheme of things, and how far will we allow ourselves to be pushed before making a stand?
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Buttonpusher,
I hate to say this but your terms and conditions are so far below those enjoyed by BAR staff they are out of sight. Hopefully you will be brought up to their level and things will improve...i.e. no more phone calls on days off, no more phone calls when you are NOT on standby, no more tech logs full of deferred defects.... I could go on.... and I speak from personal experience. Anyone with an ounce of savvy could see this coming a mile off but I still feel sorry for the BAR cabin crew. Welcome to the wonderful world of 20 roster changes a month and Cabin Crew management who expect you to serve 50 hot meals in 30 minutes to 50 full fare suits....ON YOUR OWN because the No 2 went sick AGAIN. When you have finished the service you will not even be able to wash your hands as there will be no running water in the loo! If BAR bring their agreements and terms and conditions with them everyone will benefit.
I hate to say this but your terms and conditions are so far below those enjoyed by BAR staff they are out of sight. Hopefully you will be brought up to their level and things will improve...i.e. no more phone calls on days off, no more phone calls when you are NOT on standby, no more tech logs full of deferred defects.... I could go on.... and I speak from personal experience. Anyone with an ounce of savvy could see this coming a mile off but I still feel sorry for the BAR cabin crew. Welcome to the wonderful world of 20 roster changes a month and Cabin Crew management who expect you to serve 50 hot meals in 30 minutes to 50 full fare suits....ON YOUR OWN because the No 2 went sick AGAIN. When you have finished the service you will not even be able to wash your hands as there will be no running water in the loo! If BAR bring their agreements and terms and conditions with them everyone will benefit.
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Lucky Angel,
I think you'll find R308R has a pretty good idea what he's talking about!
As far as the route network from BHX goes, with the exception of some charter destinations and BCN, all the airfields are Cat 3 Autoland capable. The A319 can get in where Embraers cannot.
BTW, 2-3 years remaining for the A319 at Brum is pretty accurate according to the management.
I think you'll find R308R has a pretty good idea what he's talking about!
As far as the route network from BHX goes, with the exception of some charter destinations and BCN, all the airfields are Cat 3 Autoland capable. The A319 can get in where Embraers cannot.
BTW, 2-3 years remaining for the A319 at Brum is pretty accurate according to the management.
to AIRFORCENONE and STABTRIM,
I dont really think you have an argument in justifying the 319 just because it has Cat 3 capability and teh Embraer doesnt , having flown both types , i can assure you that in five years I used Cat 3 in anger in the 319 once, - this will hardly justify its operating costs being above that of the 145.
As far as STABTRIMS comments about 20 rosta changes a month, being called constantly when not on standby - well the latter might happen occasionally , especially since manx was grounded, and we were providing cover, One C/crew ? - never, rostas are stable now and dont see any reason why they wont continue this way..
I dont really think you have an argument in justifying the 319 just because it has Cat 3 capability and teh Embraer doesnt , having flown both types , i can assure you that in five years I used Cat 3 in anger in the 319 once, - this will hardly justify its operating costs being above that of the 145.
As far as STABTRIMS comments about 20 rosta changes a month, being called constantly when not on standby - well the latter might happen occasionally , especially since manx was grounded, and we were providing cover, One C/crew ? - never, rostas are stable now and dont see any reason why they wont continue this way..
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Barcli,
I flew many a sector at Brymon with one cabin crew down the back where I should have had two. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer - I have no experience of BRAL, never having worked for them and my comments were directed towards Brymon. I suspect you work for BRAL at SOU? Best of luck in the new outfit anyway.
I flew many a sector at Brymon with one cabin crew down the back where I should have had two. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer - I have no experience of BRAL, never having worked for them and my comments were directed towards Brymon. I suspect you work for BRAL at SOU? Best of luck in the new outfit anyway.
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When I posted this topic it was because I belive it to be important to many people and worthy of debate from all sides of the fence. I have endeavored to provide information and comment honestly based on fact and experience.
Lucky Angel ...... I would be careful calling me a sad spotter as you do not know who I am. I would hope that any one in my position does know exactly what EGPWS is all about, and the SESSMA philosophy.
Of course, to operate to a specific Cat x limit you need the appropriate ground equipment, it all needs to be working,(and to be complete there is a whole host of other small but very critical points) but Airforcenone backs up my point very well.
Although I have rarely used its full landing capabilities having it as an option is very useful and enables us to commence our flight to a foggy destination when many other regional and low cost carries are looking for other options.
When was the last time you heard a Speedbird diverting due fog? In twenty years I cannot think of an occasion, however I have heard plenty of others.
So is this merger a good thing or a bad thing? Well when I write my memoirs I will tell you. The fact is that it all depends where you are sitting, in an A319, E145, paying for a seat down the back, serving the product or in the board room. We must remember that some people will lose there jobs, others will have to move or take much lower T&C. Other people may find opertunity. At the moment I just do not know. I don't fancy new T&C's and I do not want to move. I also want to have some form of job in the future which as missiles start flying in Afganistan is not as certain as a few weeks ago.
One thing that does concern me greatly is that mergers like this start off with the idea of taking the best bits of all ingredients and turning them into a super tasty delight. However it is much more complicated in reality as BA should know from its LGW experiences and we all know from experiences such as trying to buy a really high spec car that does 100mpg and yet doesn't worry the bank account one little bit!!!!! In short life is a compromise and the final reality is often much less rewarding than the bean counters would like us to belive.
Things do need to change, we need to respond to the challenges that become our industry as a whole and specific markets like regional operations. However I generally belive that if you desire quality then you mast be prepared to pay for it. If its low cost, then there is always someone who will do it cheaper.......
Safe Flying
Lucky Angel ...... I would be careful calling me a sad spotter as you do not know who I am. I would hope that any one in my position does know exactly what EGPWS is all about, and the SESSMA philosophy.
Of course, to operate to a specific Cat x limit you need the appropriate ground equipment, it all needs to be working,(and to be complete there is a whole host of other small but very critical points) but Airforcenone backs up my point very well.
Although I have rarely used its full landing capabilities having it as an option is very useful and enables us to commence our flight to a foggy destination when many other regional and low cost carries are looking for other options.
When was the last time you heard a Speedbird diverting due fog? In twenty years I cannot think of an occasion, however I have heard plenty of others.
So is this merger a good thing or a bad thing? Well when I write my memoirs I will tell you. The fact is that it all depends where you are sitting, in an A319, E145, paying for a seat down the back, serving the product or in the board room. We must remember that some people will lose there jobs, others will have to move or take much lower T&C. Other people may find opertunity. At the moment I just do not know. I don't fancy new T&C's and I do not want to move. I also want to have some form of job in the future which as missiles start flying in Afganistan is not as certain as a few weeks ago.
One thing that does concern me greatly is that mergers like this start off with the idea of taking the best bits of all ingredients and turning them into a super tasty delight. However it is much more complicated in reality as BA should know from its LGW experiences and we all know from experiences such as trying to buy a really high spec car that does 100mpg and yet doesn't worry the bank account one little bit!!!!! In short life is a compromise and the final reality is often much less rewarding than the bean counters would like us to belive.
Things do need to change, we need to respond to the challenges that become our industry as a whole and specific markets like regional operations. However I generally belive that if you desire quality then you mast be prepared to pay for it. If its low cost, then there is always someone who will do it cheaper.......
Safe Flying
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When was the last time you heard a Speedbird diverting due fog? In twenty years I cannot think of an occasion, however I have heard plenty of others.
15/1/97: 2 x 747 and 2 x DC10 diverted to MAN
26/11/93: 3 x 747 and 1 x Conc diverted to MAN
25/2/92: 5 x 747 diverted to MAN
13/12/91: 2 x 747, 2 x 767, 2 x 737, 1 x 757 and 1 x Conc diverted to MAN
13/11/89: 5 x 747, 1 x 747 and 1 x 737 diverted to MAN
Still want to say that you've heard no Speedbird flights diverting due to fog? These are just the LHR/LGW listings; I could add in all the BHX flights as well that have ended up at MAN.
Their planes may be CAT 3 but if holding time is excessive, then you will see aircraft diverting to fuel and go. Unless BA have got everlasting fuel
Ringwayman
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Ringwayman ]
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Ringwayman:
So the Speedbirds you quote didn't divert due fog, they actuslly diverted due FUEL, which is a different point to that made by R308R.
Angel Fish/Cake or whatever:
I suggest YOU find out what the term "R308R" actually means, and when you find out, reconsider your slagging off of the eponymous PPRuNer.
PS: I prefer IBI67/240/4 myself!
So the Speedbirds you quote didn't divert due fog, they actuslly diverted due FUEL, which is a different point to that made by R308R.
Angel Fish/Cake or whatever:
I suggest YOU find out what the term "R308R" actually means, and when you find out, reconsider your slagging off of the eponymous PPRuNer.
PS: I prefer IBI67/240/4 myself!
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Okay...you want to bring out the "anorak" in me:
15/1/97: AI (2 x 747), KQ (A310), PK (747), VS (747), KU (747), LO (737), AY (DC9), PS (737), CP (DC10), RG (MD11), MS (A300), CO (DC10), AH (737), UA (767) and RO (737) diverted in addition to the BA planes.
26/11/93: NW (DC10 & 747), KU 747, VS (2 x 747), MH (747), EK (A310), TK (A310) and AZ (2 x DC9) all accompanied the BA planes.
25/2/92 SV (747), UA (3 x 747 & 1 x 727), QF (747), AA (747sp), TW (747), RH (767), BW (L1011), AC (747), VS (747), MH (747), NW (747) and CX (747) all visited as well
13/12/91: LH (737), HV (737), KL (737), TP (737) and CY (A310) as well.
All foggy days/evenings at LHR/LGW. Fortunately for all, I don't have a list of countrywide diversions from LHR/LGW to hand
Or put more succinctly:
Fog = hold = low fuel = divert!
Besides, we know that BA are loathe to handle diverted aircraft here, even for the "splash and dash" scenarios.
Ringwayman
15/1/97: AI (2 x 747), KQ (A310), PK (747), VS (747), KU (747), LO (737), AY (DC9), PS (737), CP (DC10), RG (MD11), MS (A300), CO (DC10), AH (737), UA (767) and RO (737) diverted in addition to the BA planes.
26/11/93: NW (DC10 & 747), KU 747, VS (2 x 747), MH (747), EK (A310), TK (A310) and AZ (2 x DC9) all accompanied the BA planes.
25/2/92 SV (747), UA (3 x 747 & 1 x 727), QF (747), AA (747sp), TW (747), RH (767), BW (L1011), AC (747), VS (747), MH (747), NW (747) and CX (747) all visited as well
13/12/91: LH (737), HV (737), KL (737), TP (737) and CY (A310) as well.
All foggy days/evenings at LHR/LGW. Fortunately for all, I don't have a list of countrywide diversions from LHR/LGW to hand
Or put more succinctly:
Fog = hold = low fuel = divert!
Besides, we know that BA are loathe to handle diverted aircraft here, even for the "splash and dash" scenarios.
Ringwayman
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Well here i am again with another point to you R308R...My question to you is...For how long do you thing people in BAR would have kept their jobs if the situation stayed as it was??..eg i went on 4 BAR flights within the last year, 3 on a 737 out of MAN and 1 on an A319 out of BHx...The MAN flights pax 17 and 24....how much profit or loss shall i ask does that make...and the BHX flight 40 pax......so how long do you think BAR would stay alive if the loads stayed like that??????? I met and i have friends that work for BAR and they all tell me that the loads are more low than high and they dont know how BAR was keeping on top.As for the all wx factor i ask you in your 20 years of experience as you say....how many times did you have to do a CAT III actual approach?????? and how many times did you have to divert because the wind was greater than your 30kt x-wind limit ...yesterday for eg there was uknown delay time into EGLL because of strong winds ,, one more question how many times did you hear an airbus or 737 had to divert from ABZ because of performance limitations due to snow/slush on the rwy???? i heard quite a few of those too.....so i think we all have to accept that each a/c has its own special capabilities and can get into airports where higher technology a/c can't. Looking forward to your reply and answers to my questions......oh and by the way you dont know who i am either....
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All the techinical/operational arguments that I've seen posted here in favour of the Airbus make perfect sense. However there's also another side to this:- The customers (those people who we hope will fly with us more than once!) prefer the Airbus.
From a pax's point of view the A319s are vastly better than any alternative currently used at BHX. They're quieter inside the cabin; the pax love the leather seats & the moving map display; the cabins are more spacious; there's far more room in the galleys too, therefore the cabin crew can do their job more effectively; etc, etc, (I could go on but I wouldn't want to bore you....!).
Lucky Angel, I took 82 pax out to BRU this morning. Doesn't sound a particularly low load to me!
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Paddington* ]
From a pax's point of view the A319s are vastly better than any alternative currently used at BHX. They're quieter inside the cabin; the pax love the leather seats & the moving map display; the cabins are more spacious; there's far more room in the galleys too, therefore the cabin crew can do their job more effectively; etc, etc, (I could go on but I wouldn't want to bore you....!).
Lucky Angel, I took 82 pax out to BRU this morning. Doesn't sound a particularly low load to me!
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Paddington* ]
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Anybody out there happen to know whether BAR pilots will have any part whatsoever to play in the BACE setup, IF the unions allow it to go ahead?
What's the betting that in 2 years time BACE are operating aircraft not too dissimilar to the A318!
Nice one Rod. Let's all bend over, this won't hurt a bit!
What's the betting that in 2 years time BACE are operating aircraft not too dissimilar to the A318!
Nice one Rod. Let's all bend over, this won't hurt a bit!
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Thank you ringwayman for demonstrating just how few times BA's fuel policy has required diversions for fog over the past 10 years. Of course with so hundreds of flights a day there will always be a few, otherwise you could argue that we are carrying too much too much of the time fuel.
My point is in danger of being diluted here. The bottom line is that you are more likely to get to your destination with a BA operated service than many other carriers who will find various reasons for not flying or landing at the right place. ie running out of de-icing buget or fog or no crew of poor reliability.
Now I know some of you will point the finger at some of the BA francisees or subsideries who may not be as good with reliability and achieving a high schedual achievment as BA. I do not have figures so will not comment, but I believe BA are aware of things(BAR management certainly were a short while ago) and will have to make decisions over time.
Lucky Angel. I have seen the BAR figures for Oct and November 01 and prior to 11/9 they were up on last year.
I stated in my last posting that change is needed. I have also stated that I am not prepared to say whether this is good or bad until I write my memoirs.
Is there a plan for BA pilots who fly for BAR in BACE. Nothing has been said, lots to discuss with unions etc.but probably Yes. If the A318 is the replacement then we should consider that a number of experinced A319 pilots may find oppertunities to get involved with its introduction and training you lucky BACE guys and then enjoying a beer down route with you.
Overstress & Paddington or indeed anyone else ..... wiggle your wings over R308R ............ I'll be watching .....
Safe Flying
My point is in danger of being diluted here. The bottom line is that you are more likely to get to your destination with a BA operated service than many other carriers who will find various reasons for not flying or landing at the right place. ie running out of de-icing buget or fog or no crew of poor reliability.
Now I know some of you will point the finger at some of the BA francisees or subsideries who may not be as good with reliability and achieving a high schedual achievment as BA. I do not have figures so will not comment, but I believe BA are aware of things(BAR management certainly were a short while ago) and will have to make decisions over time.
Lucky Angel. I have seen the BAR figures for Oct and November 01 and prior to 11/9 they were up on last year.
I stated in my last posting that change is needed. I have also stated that I am not prepared to say whether this is good or bad until I write my memoirs.
Is there a plan for BA pilots who fly for BAR in BACE. Nothing has been said, lots to discuss with unions etc.but probably Yes. If the A318 is the replacement then we should consider that a number of experinced A319 pilots may find oppertunities to get involved with its introduction and training you lucky BACE guys and then enjoying a beer down route with you.
Overstress & Paddington or indeed anyone else ..... wiggle your wings over R308R ............ I'll be watching .....
Safe Flying