KE 773 landing incident at NRT

[badgerh]

Do commercial aircraft really land in 60kt crosswinds - that is very close to hurricane force (average 64 kts)? I would be happy not to be SLF in such a situation.

[Baldur]

Where does the 60KTS come from?

BBC story clearly states 60 kmph

Metars:

RJAA 130400Z 22019KT 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/21 Q1006 WS R16L BECMG 22020G32KT RMK 1CU030 A2971
RJAA 130330Z 22017G32KT 180V250 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/22 Q1006 WS R16R WS R16L NOSIG RMK 1CU030 A2973

[Dairyground]

Reverse thrust nose-up?

Is Rainboe sllipping?

Let's keep comment sensible! No simmer theories please! Was it an overzealous attempt to smooth touchdown leading to a strike? Pitch up due to reverse thrust? Poor handling habits? I think only a 777 pilot should speculate likely causes, but 'off the pavement'? Really!

From the Turkish 737 thread, I thought that I had learned that increasing forward thrust from low-slung engines could produce a strong nose-up couple. Surely reverse thrust should tend to pull the nose down, and so the tail up.

[Will Fraser]

Then there's the off chance that was full reverse thrust without first selecting reverse thrust.

[Chuck Canuck]

Heard this from a former colleague....line check flight of training dept honcho by a check airman who was also under audit by a foreign auditor. So checkee was pretty nervous in gusty X-winds, landed with a little skip, selected reverse and neutralise controls...aircraft did a little skip and checkee decided to go around.....attempted to rotate but could not engage TOGA as reversers unlocked; so tail strike!!! All told, bad training by Alteon gets bad results!!

[Noddys car]

From the ramp

[54fighting]

Foreign Auditor probably will catch the blame for creating a bad "aura".
Pretty impressive show by a "training dept. honcho," pull reverse then go-around attempt. Any clown with a korean air farce connection can get that training department gig.
Go around attempt after pulling reverse also happened not to long ago on a KAL A300 at Gimpo Airport, with a predictable tail strike....but that one got airborne again. That particular flight was a case study in ground school. Guess someone was sleepy at his groundschool, but then again a trainer probably should've known that call, a long time ago.......When will these guys ever learn ???

[BRE]

Interestingly, neither this one nor the Airbus tailstrike have made it into ASN database. Got a link on the Airbus?

[jimjim1]

UK Units of speed

Seems to me that journalists producing material for UK audiences now seem to use kilometers an hour in many cases. I presume the idea is to confuse people into thinking that the event was more dramatic than it in fact was.

Some success in this case anyway. Got the 15% nautical bonus too.

What does the panel think is the next "more dramatic unit of speed" that our friends will come up with?

[lomapaseo]

What does the panel think is the next "more dramatic unit of speed" that our friends will come up with?

furlongs per fortnight?

[Molokai]

Chuck CanuckHeard this from a former colleague....line check flight of training dept honcho by a check airman who was also under audit by a foreign auditor. So checkee was pretty nervous in gusty X-winds, landed with a little skip, selected reverse and neutralise controls...aircraft did a little skip and checkee decided to go around.....attempted to rotate but could not engage TOGA as reversers unlocked; so tail strike!!! All told, bad training by Alteon gets bad results!!

Got comfirmation that it was a botched attempt at aborting the landing; apparently the 2 jump seat occupants who were checking the PF screammed to him to " abort " the abort landing attempt as the thrust reversers were already deployed......unfortunately, he had already started the pitch up maneuver, leading to tailstrike. A bad day.......

[HeadingSouth]

so assuming the TOGA story hits:

- They were on approach in gusty crosswinds
- landed accordingly (plane needs wheels firmly on ground to deploy thurst reversers) within the touchdown zone (?)
- thrust reversers out
- folks screaming "go around" after (what I presume is) a "smooth" landing
- PF hits TOGA (for whatever reason apart from jumpseat screaming ?)
- Tailstrike occurred ?

Re-read the occurrences mentioned by the two previous posters and now I can follow :-)

[extreme P]

11 knots crosswind is what created this drama. Choose your carrier carefully.

[Paradise Lost]

Yes, they couldn't possibly be doing anything as simple as converting to metric (the standard units in UK education for decades) or giving people a unit more familiar than knots, could they?

Yep, they could have converted it into m/sec too, but despite rumours to the contrary, there are still a vast proportion of the population who understand imperial measurements, and prefer their use when appropriate....as in aviation or shipping!

[411A]

Surely reverse thrust should tend to pull the nose down, and so the tail up.

LOL....you might think so, however on some types , selecting agressive reverse definitely does result in a nose-up moment....easily corrected by straightarming the column.

[totempole]

KE B773 NRT incident and flawed Alteon training

According to a friend who had been in KAL, Alteon instructors had been training KAL B773 pilots with flawed cross wind landing techniques! They only emphasised the decrabbing method at flare or about 100' AGL...this is not an exact science especially in strong gusty and variable crosswinds. The decrabbing causes significant high descent rate coupled with automatic retardation of the thrust levers by the autothrottle invariably results in heavy landing strut compression which can be misinterpreted as a bounce, hence the botched attempt to reject the landing. Most of the older Alteon instrucors/checkers have never physically flown a B777 and think that the simulator ( which has plenty of nonsensical bugs anyway ) has the perfect fidelity to behave exactly as the real aircraft.

[CDRW]

Totempole - are you saying that the Alteon instructors should have been teaching that awful crosswind method known as wing down?? Been on the 767 for 10 years, the 777 for nigh on 8 and have only ever used the decrab method, and have never had what you described. This method is FAR better than the wing down crosscontrolled method.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Yeah, I have never heard of using a cross controlled X-wind technique in a large transport catagory jet. You will certainly come close to scraping a wingtip or an engine pod on a 4 engine jet. I had a F/O pull one on me a while ago and it was not only uncomfortable , he still landed with the nose canted off the centerline before he derotated the nose. His abrupt rudder movement to straighten the nose just added to the lack of control he showed.
Use rudder to decrab and lower the upwind wing a little to touchdown on the upwind main, then fly the other side and then the nose down. It does not have to be dramatic.

[canadair]

well, then again, qouted in MPS, Kts, KPH, FPM, or the beaufort scale, wind is wind, and its effect is only truly understood when you look at the runway out the window, whichever window you need to look out to see it, (LH side, fronts, RH side)
Before that, you saw what correction you needed to hold the loc, but thats heading.
Visual is when you know the wind, by effect, and what you previously heard it in is now insignificant,

adjust accordingly.
Thats why they give us a really big rudder or two, and ailerons.

I am constantly amused when I go to certain UK airports, and on a gusty day the controller insists on giving us a running commentary of spot winds, what do they think we do with this updating info?
(no offense to controllers, I know you are only trying to help)

[aguadalte]

Crosswind Landing Technique

Use rudder to decrab and lower the upwind wing a little to touchdown on the upwind main, then fly the other side and then the nose down. It does not have to be dramatic.

Agree...
Here's an example:








Photos by J. Sequeira (Azores)