FAA starts 'expedited review' of pilot rest rules
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roadtrip
The FAA is run by worthless, do-nothing idiots owned by the airline executives.
You can expect NOTHING to be done. This crap has been going on for years and they KNOW the problems but have done NOTHING except when ordered by court. Pilots in the cockpit are what keep the aviation industry as safe as it is, in spite of the FAA.
You can expect NOTHING to be done. This crap has been going on for years and they KNOW the problems but have done NOTHING except when ordered by court. Pilots in the cockpit are what keep the aviation industry as safe as it is, in spite of the FAA.
1) Find a way to make the decisions made by whatever professionals the FAA has in its employ to be implemented; or
2) Disband the FAA and leave airline operations up to those who own the airlines;
Oh, wait ... option number one would mean that the US would have to elect only "honest" folks into the houses of Congress, install only "honest" persons to run the various cabinet posts (like Secretary of Transportation, FAA Administrator, or NTSB Chairman), elect only "honest" persons to function as the President, and put only "honest" persons on the judicial benches. Hmm. OK. Go with option number two. Oh, wait (again), isn't that what you said was going on now?
So, I guess option number 3 would have to be to let those who are currently responsible for the safety of the system, officially "run" the system. And, I believe you said that was "the pilots in the cockpit." Right? Uh ... which ones would those be? ALPA, IFALPA, APA, Teamsters? Maybe, if we do it right, we could get all the unions running the aviation systems and eventually get to the condition currently enjoyed by the US automobile industry.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Duxbai
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hobo,
What I actually said was...
The situation surrounding the Colgan crew and their extended time positioning across the country BEFORE operating their duty is mostly (though not totally) unique to the US.
which I think you will find does not exclude other countries from the argument, however in the US there are a majority of pilots commuting huge distances, be they LH or SH. This IS different to most other countries. I am well aware of UK LH pilots commuting from other countries but it is not the norm for most of us.
There are much bigger problems with FTL's than whether it occurs in other countries or not!
What I actually said was...
The situation surrounding the Colgan crew and their extended time positioning across the country BEFORE operating their duty is mostly (though not totally) unique to the US.
which I think you will find does not exclude other countries from the argument, however in the US there are a majority of pilots commuting huge distances, be they LH or SH. This IS different to most other countries. I am well aware of UK LH pilots commuting from other countries but it is not the norm for most of us.
There are much bigger problems with FTL's than whether it occurs in other countries or not!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To honesty add Common Sense. You can't make rules to cover every scenario, hence the need for nouce. Sadly the desk jockies who do nothing but count the money have no such nouce. What ever rules they make these bean counters will find loop-holes. It's a game like foxing the taxman in Italy. There will be ferrets trying to find holes and round-about methods to cheat the rules.
It was well demonstrated by rosterers in 2 companies. FTL's is mathematics to them; nothing more or less. Maximise & minimise. On 2 seperate flights, in said 2 different companies, we started at point A, flew to B, a shortish flight, then back to A and finally onto C, a longish flight. The total duty time was too long for 2 crew. So, of course, we saddled up with 3 pilots and set off. Could we not leave the relief pilot sleeping at A and pick him up on the way back. Nope; not allowed, he had to be in the crew at the beginning. So now the relief pilot was as knackered as the rest of us, as of course the whole dingaling was a night flight, and with unsuitable crew rest facilities.
Common sense was AWOL. As long as this maximise/minimise attitude exists there will be no change.
I've always said that senior managemnt, rosterers, CAA inspectors and medical bods, plus a few from the Transport ministery, should be required to sit on the jump seat for a 3 day stint of mixed day/night short or long-haul. Then they might have a vague idea of what they are talking about and a bit more respect from us for the rules they make. At the moment the pilot commumity has little faith in any of them. One train crash and all hell is let lose by the politicians to prevent another. One tired pilot crash and simple 'pilot error' brushes it under the carpet. Share prices remain. Bad luck, but can't rock the profit boat too much. And please don't someone come back with "it's the profit that gives us a job." Of course it is, but there are sensible criteria and acceptable practices. It just makes me puke to hear all airlines saying 'saftey is our number 1 priority' and then operating in such opposite fashion regarding what some might say is the weakest link or the last line of defence. This includes everyone in the chain including all ground staff, engineers, ATC etc.
The next CEO who says safety will not be sacrifised for profit will grow a very long nose. It is rarely more than legal minimum.
It was well demonstrated by rosterers in 2 companies. FTL's is mathematics to them; nothing more or less. Maximise & minimise. On 2 seperate flights, in said 2 different companies, we started at point A, flew to B, a shortish flight, then back to A and finally onto C, a longish flight. The total duty time was too long for 2 crew. So, of course, we saddled up with 3 pilots and set off. Could we not leave the relief pilot sleeping at A and pick him up on the way back. Nope; not allowed, he had to be in the crew at the beginning. So now the relief pilot was as knackered as the rest of us, as of course the whole dingaling was a night flight, and with unsuitable crew rest facilities.
Common sense was AWOL. As long as this maximise/minimise attitude exists there will be no change.
I've always said that senior managemnt, rosterers, CAA inspectors and medical bods, plus a few from the Transport ministery, should be required to sit on the jump seat for a 3 day stint of mixed day/night short or long-haul. Then they might have a vague idea of what they are talking about and a bit more respect from us for the rules they make. At the moment the pilot commumity has little faith in any of them. One train crash and all hell is let lose by the politicians to prevent another. One tired pilot crash and simple 'pilot error' brushes it under the carpet. Share prices remain. Bad luck, but can't rock the profit boat too much. And please don't someone come back with "it's the profit that gives us a job." Of course it is, but there are sensible criteria and acceptable practices. It just makes me puke to hear all airlines saying 'saftey is our number 1 priority' and then operating in such opposite fashion regarding what some might say is the weakest link or the last line of defence. This includes everyone in the chain including all ground staff, engineers, ATC etc.
The next CEO who says safety will not be sacrifised for profit will grow a very long nose. It is rarely more than legal minimum.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: away
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Big Picture
RAT 5 - totally right
Let me just add my five cents, from where I live/fly for the last decade, far out from home, with many legal but minimum rest and night duty periods.
1. Legislators/politicians/airline managers on BOTH sides of the pond simply MUST act.
It is not possible/sustainable in the long run to operate 11 (or more) hours for 11 hours rest - irrespective of time of day/night and expect us to stay alert/fit throughout. Check any truck driver duty time limits and you will know what I am talking about! In most places, they MUST rest after 8 hours of driving.
Even the cashier in the supermarket does have more rest then us! Traveling public is kept in the dark and the more vocal we are, sooner we will have our just requirement to have a life entertained.
2. Scientific study results done last year in Europe found clearly:
- NO 14 hours duty for 2 pilots crew, max should be 12 instead;
- NO 12 hours night duty - 10 hrs instead;
- max weekly duty time to be reduced. I think, again, that the traveling public has no clue we can be pushed all the way to 55, or 58 hours!
Well, let's hope the move by FAA will reflect these findings, and long overdue discussion in european parliament will follow and endorse these changes to reduce max duty time and force JAA to implement it.
Pilots - both individually and thru our bodies - we have to be vocal now, if we want majority of us to fly until retirement, rather then succumb to illness and fatigue mid-way
Let me just add my five cents, from where I live/fly for the last decade, far out from home, with many legal but minimum rest and night duty periods.
1. Legislators/politicians/airline managers on BOTH sides of the pond simply MUST act.
It is not possible/sustainable in the long run to operate 11 (or more) hours for 11 hours rest - irrespective of time of day/night and expect us to stay alert/fit throughout. Check any truck driver duty time limits and you will know what I am talking about! In most places, they MUST rest after 8 hours of driving.
Even the cashier in the supermarket does have more rest then us! Traveling public is kept in the dark and the more vocal we are, sooner we will have our just requirement to have a life entertained.
2. Scientific study results done last year in Europe found clearly:
- NO 14 hours duty for 2 pilots crew, max should be 12 instead;
- NO 12 hours night duty - 10 hrs instead;
- max weekly duty time to be reduced. I think, again, that the traveling public has no clue we can be pushed all the way to 55, or 58 hours!
Well, let's hope the move by FAA will reflect these findings, and long overdue discussion in european parliament will follow and endorse these changes to reduce max duty time and force JAA to implement it.
Pilots - both individually and thru our bodies - we have to be vocal now, if we want majority of us to fly until retirement, rather then succumb to illness and fatigue mid-way
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Chapel Hill,NC, USA
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
low pay pilots and commuting
Many if not most US regionals cannot or will not pay new hires more than a pittance.
What bases will the most junior new hires draw? The least desirable.
Which are those? Predictably, the ones with the highest cost of living.
Such pilots based in, say, the metro NYC area, Boston, or many other regional hub bases cannot possibly earn enough to pay typical rents in these areas, so they are virtually forced to commute, or live like animals in a "zoo." (Ask any flight attendant, who makes even less, how he/she lives in NYC)
Over the years, regionals have tried to save hotel costs by basing pilots at out stations,where airplanes end their runs at day's end. Because bases are frequently changed, pilots are leery of settling in some of these small towns, because they know their airline could change hands, fail, or simply rearrange routes for whatever reason, requiring a move. So, they "choose" to commute.
Perhaps the airlines in expensive hubs, maybe as a result of new legislation, can build crew hotels with extra room for other paying customers, to ensure crews get proper rest before trips, and don't have to live in parking lot trailers and such like vagrants.
Pilots sacrifice a lot to get their jobs. They shouldn't have to sacrifice their lives, or those of others,because of a miserly salary that won't allow proper, safe accommodation where they work.
What bases will the most junior new hires draw? The least desirable.
Which are those? Predictably, the ones with the highest cost of living.
Such pilots based in, say, the metro NYC area, Boston, or many other regional hub bases cannot possibly earn enough to pay typical rents in these areas, so they are virtually forced to commute, or live like animals in a "zoo." (Ask any flight attendant, who makes even less, how he/she lives in NYC)
Over the years, regionals have tried to save hotel costs by basing pilots at out stations,where airplanes end their runs at day's end. Because bases are frequently changed, pilots are leery of settling in some of these small towns, because they know their airline could change hands, fail, or simply rearrange routes for whatever reason, requiring a move. So, they "choose" to commute.
Perhaps the airlines in expensive hubs, maybe as a result of new legislation, can build crew hotels with extra room for other paying customers, to ensure crews get proper rest before trips, and don't have to live in parking lot trailers and such like vagrants.
Pilots sacrifice a lot to get their jobs. They shouldn't have to sacrifice their lives, or those of others,because of a miserly salary that won't allow proper, safe accommodation where they work.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight duty regs and pilot fatigue - Here we go again!
Found this on Yahoo news....
Don't expect changes any time soon...The last sentence says it all......
Gov't struggles to find answer to pilot fatigue
After decades of delay, government, airline industry are prodded to deal with pilot fatigue
* By Joan Lowy, Associated Press Writer
* On Tuesday September 1, 2009, 3:06 am EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Current federal rules for how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work were written in an age of propellor-driven planes. Officials back then defined a reasonable work day for a pilot without a scientific understanding of fatigue and well before the modern airline industry.
Finding ways to prevent pilot fatigue has stymied federal regulators and the airline industry for decades. The National Transportation Safety Board has been recommending since 1990 that rules on how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work be updated to take into account early starting times and frequent takeoffs and landings.
On Tuesday, a committee made up of airline officials and union leaders is expected to deliver recommendations for updating the regulations. Although Federal Aviation Administrator Randy Babbitt has promised to vet those recommendations swiftly and turn them into a formal proposal by the FAA, the process will at a minimum take months to complete.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said she doesn't expect the suggestions to be offered Tuesday to address all the issues that are part of the fatigue problem, but she hopes they will supply a foundation. "You have to build all the rest of the house around it," she said.
Some members of Congress, though, don't trust the FAA to finally come to grips with the problem. Besides forcing the agency's hand, a bill proposed by lawmakers would require airlines to use fatigue risk management systems -- complex scheduling programs that alert the company to potential fatigue problems.
After the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee approved the bill earlier this month, Chairman James Oberstar ran through a list of the airline crashes in recent decades.
"The common thread running through all of it is fatigue," said Oberstar, D-Minn. "We have many experiences of the flight crew, the cabin crew, who in cases of emergency were just so numb they couldn't respond instantly to a tragedy at hand."
Linda Zimmerman, a retired Ohio teacher whose sister died in a 2004 regional airline crash in Kirksville, Mo., said the government's slow response saddens her.
"So many people have died and they haven't done anything about it," Zimmerman said.
Corporate Airlines Flight 5966 was preparing to land on Oct. 19, 2004, when the twin-engine turboprop slammed into trees. The pilots and 11 passengers were killed. Two injured passengers survived by jumping from the plane moments before it was engulfed in flames.
The NTSB said the pilots failed to notice that their plane had descended too quickly because they failed to follow procedures and engaged in unprofessional cockpit banter. But the board also said the captain and first officer probably were exhausted -- they were completing their sixth flight of the day, had been on duty more than 14 hours and had flown three trips the day before.
Studies show exhaustion can impair a flier's judgment in much the same way alcohol does. It's not uncommon for overtired pilots to focus on a conversation or a single chore and miss other things going on around them, including critical flight information. In a few cases, they've just fallen asleep.
Last year, two Mesa Airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned around the plane with its 40 passengers and landed it safely.
NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules -- the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. -- and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.
FAA rules on how many hours an airline pilot may fly or be on duty before he must rest have been virtually unchanged for nearly a half-century, mainly because if airlines have to allow their crews more rest, they would have to hire more crews.
An FAA effort to tackle the issue in the mid-1990s foundered because airlines wanted concessions from pilots in return for reducing flying hours, and the pilots unions wouldn't go along. The agency proposed a new rule, but it has languished for years without final action.
NTSB's investigation of the crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 on Feb. 12 near Buffalo, N.Y., killing 50, has spotlighted the long hours, low pay and long-distance commutes of regional airline pilots.
It's not clear where the captain of Flight 3407 slept the night before the crash, but it appears he may have tried to nap in a busy airport crew room where his company -- regional carrier Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental -- kept bright lights on continuously to discourage extended sleeping. The first officer commuted overnight from her home near Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo.
Current rules say pilots can be scheduled for up to 16 hours on duty and up to eight hours of actual flight time in a day, with a minimum of eight hours off in between. They don't take into account that it is probably more tiring for regional airline pilots to fly five or six short legs in seven hours than it is for a pilot with a major airline to fly eight hours across the Atlantic to Europe with only one takeoff and landing.
One way to compensate would be a "controlled napping" policy, based on NASA research more than two decades ago. It found that pilots were more alert and performed better during landings when they were allowed to take turns napping during the cruise phase of flights. Other countries have adopted the policies, but the FAA has not.
According to Curtis Graeber, who ran NASA's fatigue research program for 10 years, some high-level officials worried that controlled napping would become the butt of jokes by late-night comedians.
After decades of delay, government, airline industry are prodded to deal with pilot fatigue
* By Joan Lowy, Associated Press Writer
* On Tuesday September 1, 2009, 3:06 am EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Current federal rules for how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work were written in an age of propellor-driven planes. Officials back then defined a reasonable work day for a pilot without a scientific understanding of fatigue and well before the modern airline industry.
Finding ways to prevent pilot fatigue has stymied federal regulators and the airline industry for decades. The National Transportation Safety Board has been recommending since 1990 that rules on how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work be updated to take into account early starting times and frequent takeoffs and landings.
On Tuesday, a committee made up of airline officials and union leaders is expected to deliver recommendations for updating the regulations. Although Federal Aviation Administrator Randy Babbitt has promised to vet those recommendations swiftly and turn them into a formal proposal by the FAA, the process will at a minimum take months to complete.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said she doesn't expect the suggestions to be offered Tuesday to address all the issues that are part of the fatigue problem, but she hopes they will supply a foundation. "You have to build all the rest of the house around it," she said.
Some members of Congress, though, don't trust the FAA to finally come to grips with the problem. Besides forcing the agency's hand, a bill proposed by lawmakers would require airlines to use fatigue risk management systems -- complex scheduling programs that alert the company to potential fatigue problems.
After the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee approved the bill earlier this month, Chairman James Oberstar ran through a list of the airline crashes in recent decades.
"The common thread running through all of it is fatigue," said Oberstar, D-Minn. "We have many experiences of the flight crew, the cabin crew, who in cases of emergency were just so numb they couldn't respond instantly to a tragedy at hand."
Linda Zimmerman, a retired Ohio teacher whose sister died in a 2004 regional airline crash in Kirksville, Mo., said the government's slow response saddens her.
"So many people have died and they haven't done anything about it," Zimmerman said.
Corporate Airlines Flight 5966 was preparing to land on Oct. 19, 2004, when the twin-engine turboprop slammed into trees. The pilots and 11 passengers were killed. Two injured passengers survived by jumping from the plane moments before it was engulfed in flames.
The NTSB said the pilots failed to notice that their plane had descended too quickly because they failed to follow procedures and engaged in unprofessional cockpit banter. But the board also said the captain and first officer probably were exhausted -- they were completing their sixth flight of the day, had been on duty more than 14 hours and had flown three trips the day before.
Studies show exhaustion can impair a flier's judgment in much the same way alcohol does. It's not uncommon for overtired pilots to focus on a conversation or a single chore and miss other things going on around them, including critical flight information. In a few cases, they've just fallen asleep.
Last year, two Mesa Airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned around the plane with its 40 passengers and landed it safely.
NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules -- the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. -- and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.
FAA rules on how many hours an airline pilot may fly or be on duty before he must rest have been virtually unchanged for nearly a half-century, mainly because if airlines have to allow their crews more rest, they would have to hire more crews.
An FAA effort to tackle the issue in the mid-1990s foundered because airlines wanted concessions from pilots in return for reducing flying hours, and the pilots unions wouldn't go along. The agency proposed a new rule, but it has languished for years without final action.
NTSB's investigation of the crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 on Feb. 12 near Buffalo, N.Y., killing 50, has spotlighted the long hours, low pay and long-distance commutes of regional airline pilots.
It's not clear where the captain of Flight 3407 slept the night before the crash, but it appears he may have tried to nap in a busy airport crew room where his company -- regional carrier Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental -- kept bright lights on continuously to discourage extended sleeping. The first officer commuted overnight from her home near Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo.
Current rules say pilots can be scheduled for up to 16 hours on duty and up to eight hours of actual flight time in a day, with a minimum of eight hours off in between. They don't take into account that it is probably more tiring for regional airline pilots to fly five or six short legs in seven hours than it is for a pilot with a major airline to fly eight hours across the Atlantic to Europe with only one takeoff and landing.
One way to compensate would be a "controlled napping" policy, based on NASA research more than two decades ago. It found that pilots were more alert and performed better during landings when they were allowed to take turns napping during the cruise phase of flights. Other countries have adopted the policies, but the FAA has not.
According to Curtis Graeber, who ran NASA's fatigue research program for 10 years, some high-level officials worried that controlled napping would become the butt of jokes by late-night comedians.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't expect changes any time soon...
There is a cynical little nuance in aviation though. It has that "it will not happen to me" thing a little bit more than with the other themes. The managers and regulators are most eloquent at the memorials, promising any kind of immediate action, swearing on the honor of their mothers, just to forget about that the next morning at the first meeting with the company beancounters and attorneys (and later with his personal banker for that matter). Their butts will most probably never be on board, therefore ..... where is the problem? The public will soon forget as the next scandal is just around the corner, so just sit it out.
We pilots make such easy, beatiful and defensless scapegoats, once in the smokin' hole. Nothing will happen, it is financially just too convenient for the establishment.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See NCA Operations Manual OM
Chapter 8 Flight Crew Members
Paragraph 8-7 Duty and Rest
Sub Paragraph 8-7-2 Standards of Flight Crew Scheduling
point 2.
"Flight crew schedule shall not exceed the limitations described below:
Composition of Flight Flight Time Duty Time
Crew
Pilot qualified as Captain 1 12 hours 15 hours
Pilot qualified as captain or
Pilot qualified as Co-Pilot 1
The above copied straight from the NCA Operations Manual.
Chapter 8 Flight Crew Members
Paragraph 8-7 Duty and Rest
Sub Paragraph 8-7-2 Standards of Flight Crew Scheduling
point 2.
"Flight crew schedule shall not exceed the limitations described below:
Composition of Flight Flight Time Duty Time
Crew
Pilot qualified as Captain 1 12 hours 15 hours
Pilot qualified as captain or
Pilot qualified as Co-Pilot 1
The above copied straight from the NCA Operations Manual.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules -- the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. -- and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.
I wonder what the RYR pilots really think of their 5 earlies. Getting out of bed for 5 consective mornings at 04.00, with what might be only 5 hours sleep in a normal family house. It might be your own bed, but that brings with all the noise of normal family life. Perhaps Leo might enlighten us with his secret of how to cope with "the best roster in the industry'.
This is not a RYR bash by any means; indeed the opposite; more a wish for some realism. What is finally happening is, hopefully, a recognition of what us sharp end jockies have known for years. Sadly I will not hold my breath. The power of money, both profit and loss, is too great. Crew duty times have lengthened to match the endurance of a/c. Manufacturers design them to fly longer and longer, so for profit they have to be flown by 2 crew. All the CAA's have allowed this to happen. Only strong unions in the majors have managed some form of balance. Those of us lower down the food chain had no such buffer and the CAA's listened to the finacial argument for airline survival, not the safety warning of their own AIB's or NSTB's.
I wonder what the RYR pilots really think of their 5 earlies. Getting out of bed for 5 consective mornings at 04.00, with what might be only 5 hours sleep in a normal family house. It might be your own bed, but that brings with all the noise of normal family life. Perhaps Leo might enlighten us with his secret of how to cope with "the best roster in the industry'.
This is not a RYR bash by any means; indeed the opposite; more a wish for some realism. What is finally happening is, hopefully, a recognition of what us sharp end jockies have known for years. Sadly I will not hold my breath. The power of money, both profit and loss, is too great. Crew duty times have lengthened to match the endurance of a/c. Manufacturers design them to fly longer and longer, so for profit they have to be flown by 2 crew. All the CAA's have allowed this to happen. Only strong unions in the majors have managed some form of balance. Those of us lower down the food chain had no such buffer and the CAA's listened to the finacial argument for airline survival, not the safety warning of their own AIB's or NSTB's.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules -- the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. -- and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.
I wonder what the RYR pilots really think of their 5 earlies. Getting out of bed for 5 consective mornings at 04.00, with what might be only 5 hours sleep in a normal family house. It might be your own bed, but that brings with all the noise of normal family life. Perhaps Leo might enlighten us with his secret of how to cope with "the best roster in the industry'.
This is not a RYR bash by any means; indeed the opposite; more a wish for some realism. What is finally happening is, hopefully, a recognition of what us sharp end jockies have known for years. Sadly I will not hold my breath. The power of money, both profit and loss, is too great. Crew duty times have lengthened to match the endurance of a/c. Manufacturers design them to fly longer and longer, so for profit they have to be flown by 2 crew. All the CAA's have allowed this to happen. Remember, the upper deck on B747 was originally designed as a crew rest lounge. What ever happened to that concept? The Italians even said that the autopilot was a 3rd pilot for FTL's, and a real heavy crew could sleep in the cockpit a al Air Europe. The Dutch allowed heavy crew with no crew rest area, only a pax seat. Only strong unions in the majors have managed some form of balance. Those of us lower down the food chain had no such buffer and the CAA's listened to the finacial argument for airline survival, not the safety warning of their own AIB's or NSTB's.
I wonder what the RYR pilots really think of their 5 earlies. Getting out of bed for 5 consective mornings at 04.00, with what might be only 5 hours sleep in a normal family house. It might be your own bed, but that brings with all the noise of normal family life. Perhaps Leo might enlighten us with his secret of how to cope with "the best roster in the industry'.
This is not a RYR bash by any means; indeed the opposite; more a wish for some realism. What is finally happening is, hopefully, a recognition of what us sharp end jockies have known for years. Sadly I will not hold my breath. The power of money, both profit and loss, is too great. Crew duty times have lengthened to match the endurance of a/c. Manufacturers design them to fly longer and longer, so for profit they have to be flown by 2 crew. All the CAA's have allowed this to happen. Remember, the upper deck on B747 was originally designed as a crew rest lounge. What ever happened to that concept? The Italians even said that the autopilot was a 3rd pilot for FTL's, and a real heavy crew could sleep in the cockpit a al Air Europe. The Dutch allowed heavy crew with no crew rest area, only a pax seat. Only strong unions in the majors have managed some form of balance. Those of us lower down the food chain had no such buffer and the CAA's listened to the finacial argument for airline survival, not the safety warning of their own AIB's or NSTB's.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rat 5
Whilst RYR have done little research on the effects of 5 earlies, Easyjet have and I believe plenty of stats to go with it (and more importantly Pilot support although I stand to be corrected).
SEJ
Disagree - the UK CAA do have teeth and I can assure you they are being used. Any variations these days to CAP371 are only granted with Fatigue Risk support. These variations are likely not to be even Sub Part Q limits also.
Rat 5
You'll be pleased to know i've done my FRMS course - see things are moving!
Whilst RYR have done little research on the effects of 5 earlies, Easyjet have and I believe plenty of stats to go with it (and more importantly Pilot support although I stand to be corrected).
SEJ
Disagree - the UK CAA do have teeth and I can assure you they are being used. Any variations these days to CAP371 are only granted with Fatigue Risk support. These variations are likely not to be even Sub Part Q limits also.
Rat 5
You'll be pleased to know i've done my FRMS course - see things are moving!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Svarte granskauen
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was on a RYR contract almost 7 years ago, we were on a 6 on 6 off schedule. 6 lates not a problem, but 6 earlies were pretty bad. And that was back when the earliest reports were 0530, many were later. Apparantly the IAA took issue and next year it had become 5 on 5 off (talking about contract pilots here, not permanent RYR pilots).
In the US, the FAA really need to wake up! If you are working for a major, flying longhaul, Part 121 works fine. It means you are always (well, mostly) 3 crew across the Atlantic at a time when most JAA operators are down to 2 pilots. I know the charters are particularly bad, CPH-CUN non stop, 2 crew anyone?
The worst of the lot is the supplemental carrier rules. I have worked for one of those as well. 0100L report, fly empty to St. Kitts, pick up pax, fly to Pittsburg, then fly empty back to base. On chocks at 1530L, a 14:30 duty day, 2 crew since the last sector was an empty positioning flight (and flown in accordance with Part 91). Under CAP371 (UK FTL rules) the max duty possible for that report would be 10:15, meaning we would have had to be finished by 11:15L. Who in the FAA thinks that a crater in the ground is smaller just because there are no passengers aboard?
I read an article a while back from some Fed-Ex pilots where they were trying to pursuade the FAA they needed to adopt UK/HKG rules for FTL (in other words your days duty is based on what time you report, if you are acclimatised etc). Did anything come of that?
In the US, the FAA really need to wake up! If you are working for a major, flying longhaul, Part 121 works fine. It means you are always (well, mostly) 3 crew across the Atlantic at a time when most JAA operators are down to 2 pilots. I know the charters are particularly bad, CPH-CUN non stop, 2 crew anyone?
The worst of the lot is the supplemental carrier rules. I have worked for one of those as well. 0100L report, fly empty to St. Kitts, pick up pax, fly to Pittsburg, then fly empty back to base. On chocks at 1530L, a 14:30 duty day, 2 crew since the last sector was an empty positioning flight (and flown in accordance with Part 91). Under CAP371 (UK FTL rules) the max duty possible for that report would be 10:15, meaning we would have had to be finished by 11:15L. Who in the FAA thinks that a crater in the ground is smaller just because there are no passengers aboard?
I read an article a while back from some Fed-Ex pilots where they were trying to pursuade the FAA they needed to adopt UK/HKG rules for FTL (in other words your days duty is based on what time you report, if you are acclimatised etc). Did anything come of that?