FAA starts 'expedited review' of pilot rest rules
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In my day in BA we had the "Douglas Bader Rules" and they certainly worked very well in preventing fatigue...However, they proved commercially expensive and eventually got sold for a pay rise...
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I am a train driver and have just done 5 earlies starting between 4 and 5. 1 hour travelling each way, with shifts varying between 8 and 9 1/2 hours.
I don't know what planet I am on.....
I have got tomorrow off and am back in for another 3.
Any progress you make....point me in the right direction, the health implications are definately real....
I don't know what planet I am on.....
I have got tomorrow off and am back in for another 3.
Any progress you make....point me in the right direction, the health implications are definately real....
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There is another item to consider. I've been connected with 2 LoCo's who use a fixed roster or earlies/lates/earlies etc. There was no choice. It is a well known medical fact that some people are larks, others owls. I.e. they function better in the morning than night, or t'other way round. However, it was not possible to request the roster to suit your type. Some people would like to work all earlies or all lates. Not only could it suit their personal nature, but be more convenient for their family life. Why on earth is that not allowed? There is no cost issue. It is a petty "everyone must do the same" attitude.
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My first "real" flying job was with a small Beech 99/Twin Otter operator in West Virginia. The training department (no simulators in those days!) was run by some excellent individuals, one of whom is a Continental Airlines instructor today.
The airplanes operated from early morning to late night, making for an easy separation of pilot schedules into "Morning" and "Afternoon." The company chose to make schedules all one way or the other. Pilots were allowed to indicate their preferences.
It worked out that about half preferred early schedules, getting back home early in the afternoon, and the other half preferred to arise at a civilized hour,and didn't mind returning late. Pretty much everyone was happy with the rostering.
During one discussion of the compressed flying in the course of a day, some pilots complained that if they got behind (wx, etc.) early, they didn't even have time to eat, were hard pressed to "catch up," and discussed possible deleterious consequences of that. The chief pilot commiserated, and reminded the pilots that if they had no chance to eat, they were authorized to delay a flight for a reasonably short time to take some sustenance.
Sure enough,shortly thereafter one brash young captain flying an afternoon schedule arose early one morning, picked up his mail at the post office, did his laundry, reported for work just after noon, flew the first leg, then delayed the next flight to eat lunch! Fired summarily, he got his job back (with no union!) after a few days off, ending up years later as a captain at a US major.
Burp!
The airplanes operated from early morning to late night, making for an easy separation of pilot schedules into "Morning" and "Afternoon." The company chose to make schedules all one way or the other. Pilots were allowed to indicate their preferences.
It worked out that about half preferred early schedules, getting back home early in the afternoon, and the other half preferred to arise at a civilized hour,and didn't mind returning late. Pretty much everyone was happy with the rostering.
During one discussion of the compressed flying in the course of a day, some pilots complained that if they got behind (wx, etc.) early, they didn't even have time to eat, were hard pressed to "catch up," and discussed possible deleterious consequences of that. The chief pilot commiserated, and reminded the pilots that if they had no chance to eat, they were authorized to delay a flight for a reasonably short time to take some sustenance.
Sure enough,shortly thereafter one brash young captain flying an afternoon schedule arose early one morning, picked up his mail at the post office, did his laundry, reported for work just after noon, flew the first leg, then delayed the next flight to eat lunch! Fired summarily, he got his job back (with no union!) after a few days off, ending up years later as a captain at a US major.
Burp!
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windshear
After 5 earlies it's normal/likely that EASY/FR pilots will get minimum 3/4 days afterwards to recover from the early starts. Do you as a train driver have limits on the number of earlies you can do?. Are you scheduled to have just 1 day off or do you have to back for overtime to make ends meet.
A reality check for us airline folk perhaps
After 5 earlies it's normal/likely that EASY/FR pilots will get minimum 3/4 days afterwards to recover from the early starts. Do you as a train driver have limits on the number of earlies you can do?. Are you scheduled to have just 1 day off or do you have to back for overtime to make ends meet.
A reality check for us airline folk perhaps
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windshear
After 5 earlies it's normal/likely that EASY/FR pilots will get minimum 3/4 days afterwards to recover from the early starts. Do you as a train driver have limits on the number of earlies you can do?. Are you scheduled to have just 1 day off or do you have to back for overtime to make ends meet.
After 5 earlies it's normal/likely that EASY/FR pilots will get minimum 3/4 days afterwards to recover from the early starts. Do you as a train driver have limits on the number of earlies you can do?. Are you scheduled to have just 1 day off or do you have to back for overtime to make ends meet.
The railway industry is shockingly un-regulated.......its totally powered from within. As long as you have 1 day off every 13th day, you could do a 12 hour early shifts in 13 day stints, all year! Granted, you would have to swap shifts to maintain that string of earlies.
Our rostering system is sanctioned by union drivers, who ensure their 'higher order' rosters are looked after.......us rats at the bottom are slaved to dangerous levels.
I spent 5 years within airline ops........I would do anything for a pilots roster!
That is not me putting pilots down, I worship the industry!!
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"After 5 earlies it's normal/likely that EASY/FR pilots will get minimum 3/4 days afterwards to recover from the early starts."
It always makes me smile (grimace) when I read this type of drivel in the 21st century. Why do some people seem to think that 'days off' are to recover from the burden of work. If you are in need of such then what state were you in on the last working day? Where is the balance between work and social life if you have no energy on your days off to enjoy the other side of life? After 5 days solid work and little time to do all the necessary jobbers, the so called rest time is spent catching up on the 'she who must be obeyed's' list whch has been growing over those 5 days.
There are those of us who work to live and the others who live to work. Let's wonder a moment where the majority lie in philosophy, and where they lie in reality. There is whole lot of difference being cooped/locked up in a miniture green house for 5 days x 10 hrs doing shift work timings, and doing 40hrs in an office with space enough to swing a cat, a coffee machine close to hand, a park for lunch and a regular sleep pattern at the correct times after a good family dinner at a proper table.
I still find it odd that so many industries and jobs, inlcuding those in Flt OPs rooms and ground engineers, have worked out that 4 on 4 off is a good way to go for shift work. it could be 2 earlies 2 lates 4 off, or a mixture. They have full office space to spend their workng life in, and can take breaks. Why is it that flight crew, including C/A's, are considered so macho we can be chained to a seat in glass house for purgatory periods and be expected to operate at 100% all the time. Sheer madness. It's amazing there are not more holes in the ground.
So why is 2 earlies, 2 lates, 4 off such an unachievable roster for short-haul ops? That way the middle night would be a full nights sleep; to recover from, perhaps even prevent tiredness.
It always makes me smile (grimace) when I read this type of drivel in the 21st century. Why do some people seem to think that 'days off' are to recover from the burden of work. If you are in need of such then what state were you in on the last working day? Where is the balance between work and social life if you have no energy on your days off to enjoy the other side of life? After 5 days solid work and little time to do all the necessary jobbers, the so called rest time is spent catching up on the 'she who must be obeyed's' list whch has been growing over those 5 days.
There are those of us who work to live and the others who live to work. Let's wonder a moment where the majority lie in philosophy, and where they lie in reality. There is whole lot of difference being cooped/locked up in a miniture green house for 5 days x 10 hrs doing shift work timings, and doing 40hrs in an office with space enough to swing a cat, a coffee machine close to hand, a park for lunch and a regular sleep pattern at the correct times after a good family dinner at a proper table.
I still find it odd that so many industries and jobs, inlcuding those in Flt OPs rooms and ground engineers, have worked out that 4 on 4 off is a good way to go for shift work. it could be 2 earlies 2 lates 4 off, or a mixture. They have full office space to spend their workng life in, and can take breaks. Why is it that flight crew, including C/A's, are considered so macho we can be chained to a seat in glass house for purgatory periods and be expected to operate at 100% all the time. Sheer madness. It's amazing there are not more holes in the ground.
So why is 2 earlies, 2 lates, 4 off such an unachievable roster for short-haul ops? That way the middle night would be a full nights sleep; to recover from, perhaps even prevent tiredness.
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Hi!
Here some stuff I know about, all allowed by the FAA:
240 consecutive hours of reserve, then called for a trip.
25 hour duty day (2 crew)
Flew a very long trip, then flew Part 91 (non-commercial aviation) from Yellowknife, NW Territories to El Paso, TX. Part 91 allowed because no passengers/frieght on board so "empty leg."
Lookback to last week, and pick a day you were on reserve the whole day, and call it a day "off" so you get your 1 in 7 days off. Approved by local FAA airline representative.
LOTS of this crap going on, all with the sanction of the FAA. NOT very nice!
cliff
NBO
Here some stuff I know about, all allowed by the FAA:
240 consecutive hours of reserve, then called for a trip.
25 hour duty day (2 crew)
Flew a very long trip, then flew Part 91 (non-commercial aviation) from Yellowknife, NW Territories to El Paso, TX. Part 91 allowed because no passengers/frieght on board so "empty leg."
Lookback to last week, and pick a day you were on reserve the whole day, and call it a day "off" so you get your 1 in 7 days off. Approved by local FAA airline representative.
LOTS of this crap going on, all with the sanction of the FAA. NOT very nice!
cliff
NBO
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Standard operating procedure for most freight airlines.
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EU fails Air Safety
Tonight the national Danish TV ran a story about EUs failure to prohibit long working hours, despite EASA's own research showing increased risks due to fatigue.
Story included interviews with the chairman of the Danish Pilots Association, Mogens Holgaard, as well as the Head of the Flight Medicine Clinic at Rigshospitalet, Mads Klokker.
Pilot-formand: EU svigter fly-sikkerhed - dr.dk/Nyheder/Penge (in Danish)
Also mentioned was the the upcoming European Action Day in Brussels by
www.eurocockpit.be
The date October 5th was mentioned (date not yet mentioned on www.dead-tired.eu)
Two weeks ago the Danish Association for Aviation and Diving Medicine had a very interesting lecture by John Caldwell, Ph.D., USA,
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
The presentations are available here
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...#91;1].pdf
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...hop_2009_b.pdf
There is also background information at For Better Legal Protection Against Pilot Fatigue - European Cockpit Association (ECA) - eurocockpit.be
Story included interviews with the chairman of the Danish Pilots Association, Mogens Holgaard, as well as the Head of the Flight Medicine Clinic at Rigshospitalet, Mads Klokker.
Pilot-formand: EU svigter fly-sikkerhed - dr.dk/Nyheder/Penge (in Danish)
Also mentioned was the the upcoming European Action Day in Brussels by
www.eurocockpit.be
The date October 5th was mentioned (date not yet mentioned on www.dead-tired.eu)
Two weeks ago the Danish Association for Aviation and Diving Medicine had a very interesting lecture by John Caldwell, Ph.D., USA,
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
The presentations are available here
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...#91;1].pdf
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fat...hop_2009_b.pdf
There is also background information at For Better Legal Protection Against Pilot Fatigue - European Cockpit Association (ECA) - eurocockpit.be
Last edited by PPL_DK; 28th Sep 2009 at 09:05. Reason: Fixed hyperlink.
A reality check for us airline folk perhaps
For example, what is the cabin altitude in Windshears train and how does that affect the extent of his fatigue?
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One has to use reality, at least with ops in the USA.
Make no mistake, the airline lobby in congress is very strong, much more so than any pilots union, and so long as the airline business is firmly in the red, flight duty times are unlikely to change much.
Make no mistake, the airline lobby in congress is very strong, much more so than any pilots union, and so long as the airline business is firmly in the red, flight duty times are unlikely to change much.
PPL_DK - Thanks for the links to the Caldwell presentations. Very worthwhile to look at. That kind of info is the good side of this forum.
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 1st Oct 2009 at 22:43.
