Fatigue & journo asking for info

[Doug the Head]

Dan:

If there was a reliable and cheap scientific test for fatigue, in the same way as they can test blood alcohol level, you can bet there would be legislation to cover it.

Well, there is a reliable and effective way to anticipate fatigue, and that is to have some common sense when planning crews and establishing realistic regulations. But of course that would be too much to ask... No, the writing (by flight crew) is on the wall, but the authorities, the airlines and the public prefer to wait till the inevitable happens.

The airlines have covered themselves legally with al kinds of vague memo's and 'fatigue awareness training' and for the authorities....well, they will probably react in the same way as in the present credit crunch: firmly asleep at the 'protecting the public' switch and blaming greedy managers for anything that goes wrong.

[SPA83]

black list

Here is the black list of European Airlines “dismayed” by the EASA report about fatigue

Adria Airways - Aer Lingus - AeroSvit - Air France - Air Malta - Air One - Alitalia -Austrian - bmi - British Airways - Brussels Airlines – Cargolux - Croatia Airlines - Cyprus Airways - Czech Airlines – DHL – Finnair – Iberia – Icelandair - Jat Airways – KLM – LOT – Lufthansa – Luxair – Malev - Olympic Airlines - SAS Scandinavian Airlines – Spanair – SWISS - TAP Portugal – TAROM - TNT Airways - Turkish Airlines - Ukraine International Airlines - Virgin Atlantic Airways

You can add Ryanair for the others, I don’t know

Les dossiers noirs du transport aérien

[Dream Buster]

Measuring abnormal chemicals

llondel,

There is a reliable and expensive (£450) way measuring abnormal amounts of chemicals in pilots - it has been done since 2006 when 27 pilots were tested by UCL - the report was published recently along with another one linking low level exposure of OP's to chronic ill health.

Dr Sarah Mackenzie Ross - UCL - Peer reviewed paper.

Scientific Reports - Aerotoxic Association - Support for Aerotoxic Syndrome Sufferers

Poisoning = fatigue.

DB

[eliptic]

My god,,

Reading this report you guys(crew) are like walking gas stations

some 1000% over average on C7H16O

[Double Zero]

Fatigue

Avman & Dan,

As mentioned before I'm SLF but have done a fair bit of 'flying' as an organic -based autopilot to and from photography sorties etc.

I'm also a qualified yachtie & instructor, and I always say ' fatigue is the No.1 enemy ' - though it takes a lot longer to get into trouble in a boat compared to an aircraft, it also takes an equally long time or more to get out of it !

Regarding the comment about long trips before one even gets into an aircraft in the U.S, very true, but I'd reckon Heathrow and the traffic around it a pretty serious issue, don't know about anyone else but a near road-rage inducing constant traffic jam b***rs me far more than a longer road trip, and I wouldn't think either very good for flying.

I doubt a company pilot's barracks for the day before flight would go down very well, so how about local hotel arrangements ?

[eliptic]

Fatigue

I am trying to understand the problem but get some what confused

Is the major problem:

1/ to long travel to get to the "job hours" ?

2/ screwed up FAA regulations (rest/work)?

3/ FAA regulations ok but not enforced/stretched by the employer ?

If 2 and 3, is this something that complies to the majority of pilots/crew?

[Avman]

I doubt a company pilot's barracks for the day before flight would go down very well, so how about local hotel arrangements ?

I believe the hotel arrangement was a lot more common before the beancounters took over. I know that when my wife was an F/A (30 odd years ago) she was also restricted to the distance she could live from base (something like 1 hour´s drive max). I don´t know if F/D crews had similar restrictions. Other than a fairly long drive to the airport, I don´t think that pilots in Europe commute by air to the same extent (and miles) that U.S. pilots do. I was once chatting to the Captain of an oceanic Eastbound (night) flight I took from the East coast telling me that he had commuted in that day from the West coast! There should really be some sort of regulation about that. Many pilots won´t fork out for a hotel at their own expense and airlines won´t restrict distances crews may reside from base or distances from which they may commute.

[ALK A343]

In our company we still have a perimeter within which aircrew are expected to reside and we are provided a company vehicle and driver to pick and drop us back home.
The cockpit crew will share a car or van and the cabin crew will be allocated a bus.
In the little south asian country I live in it is an absolute necessity, as you could spend up to 2 1/2 hours (depending on the traffic situation) commuting to the airport.
This company transport is a lifesaver after a long night flight and you arrive at the airport fully rested.

But even in the developing world things like these are expensive for the company and it is not mandated by the regulator.
It does certainly affect the competitiveness and the customer has no clue about all these extras. Their main concern is airfare.

[swish266]

Pre-flight medical?!

Many years ago, in Communist times, I reported for duty of all places in the Doctor's office!
1.We had to sign that we had a minimum 8h rest before the flight.
2.Most of the time we had our blood pressure and pulse taken.
3.We were random tested for alcohol - no margin - it had to be 0.00!
The company doctors (about half a dozen) had all the pilots' medical files at their disposal and were familiar with everybody's history. It was not unusual for a stby to be called out because someone was declared unfit to fly...
We had to take each year 2 weeks R&R at a company facility for free either in the mountains or at the sea... No family of course!
Overweight guys were sent on sick leave to slim down at what today is called a "spa"...
Ah, and paid leave - 39 working (not calendar) days per year, if you did more than 400 hours - add 5, more than 600 hours - add another 5 days... Yes - 49 working days a year of paid leave, how about that?
Fatigue?! We didn't even know the word at that time!
Guess if a jerk from our HR reads this it will give him a fit, if not a heart attack!
But remember this only used to happen on the other side of the Iron Curtain...
When people were trying to build a better life, and did not wake up in a cold sweat at night wondering if they are actually bankrupt yet or not...

[Romeo India Xray]

Swish

My direct manager tells similar stories of his Aeroflot days for the first half of his career (he is now well past the retirement line, but thats another story). I guess there really were some up-sides to the old system although I am sure wages were not one of them!

Fatigue is an issue, I am not going to deny that. There has to be a solution, but as things are I see no way they could get much worse so don't worry any more than you are already!!! - I would go on about my thoughts on augmented and rest periods, but it is late here and I have an ice cold sitting next to me.

The OP cites the European Cockpit Association. This would be the same ECA that I understand has cited European Directive 670/91 in it's rantings to the European Comission earlier this month, seemingly oblivious to the fact that 670/91 has not been in effect since 20 Feb 2008. Guys, this is an organization that attests to protect your interests - be afraid!

RIX

[villian]

these Aeroflot days

Concerning notorious AFL-NORD flight:


extremely low experience on type ,N1 split, non-standard FPD (no FD),
IRS position shift (no TOGA - no threshold update )



and as a final point - state of a highest fatigue ( allmost no rest for 3 nights)
with the great violation of work and rest time, as admitted by official report



and after all just after release of official report, a week ago ( is that a conclusion?) local authorities allowed to increase annual flight hours
by 10% for cockpit crew...


Does this mean a Civil air transportation or Civil War?


P.S. My PA greetings sound completely drunk after 3 consequent nights.

[robins1]

a possible cause of pilot error?

this research has just been published, it may throw some light on one possible cause of pilot error or misjudgment.

Parasite may increase odds of an auto accident - 03 June 2009 - New Scientist

makes you want to stay indoors!!

[flipster]

I am certainly going to stop eating cat pooh!!!

[GULFPILOT76]

I really wonder if the EASA study which has been performed by Moebus Aviation on pilot fatique will have any influence on the JAR-FTL in the time to come.

The study revealed a 5.5 times higher risk of incidents/accidents with the legislation now accepted by the EU. New scientific data were at the time accepted by the EU parliament as having influence on the future FTL (SubpartQ).

Airline company's are trying to fight this study with all means available.
EASA seems to join the airline side in this matter.

[villian]

наррiness

GULFPILOT76

you still so happy staying out of CIS

[JournalistUK]

Pilot fatigue

Hello everyone, I'm a journalist for a British newspaper and I'm writing a piece about pilot fatigue. I would really like to speak to current, or former, airline pilots of their experiences of fatigue, safety concerns, problems with inadequate rest regulations etc. I think fatigue is a significant safety issue that hasn't been highlighted much, and from reading the forums here, it seems others agree.
Ideally, I would like to speak to pilots with British airlines, or at least those who often fly in and out of UK airports, and (although it would be preferable if anyone who wants to speak to me is happy to be identified) I can also assure absolute anonymity.
You can contact me on < emine1 @ hotmail.com > (without the spaces of course) or via the PM system and I will be happy to give more information.
Thanks,
Emine

[flipster]

Well at least you are being honest about scouring for an article.

Some helpful advice:


1. Read CAA doc CAP 371 - Flight Time Limitations (FTL)
2. Then try contacting BALPA in the next instance (for UK).
3. Search the internet - there is lots of good stuff out there - eg Adelaide Uni in Oz and the RAeS '97 Paper.
4. I think if you search PPrune, there are a number of fatigue related threads.
5. A number of airlines are starting up Fatigue Risk Management Systems as part of their overall Safety Management Systems.
6. Do not take management's word on fatigue - as FTL schemes can be company-specific (ie long haul v short haul, which both have different fatigue threats ie crossing a number of time-zones v multiple sectors). FRMS will be not make much difference IMHO - the threats don't change.

7. It is vital to note the following problems:


a. Neither system (FTL nor FRMS) takes into account the fatigue induced by travelling to or from work 'under own steam' and some people live a long way from their reporting base.

b. Niether system takes into account the fact that crews have lifestyle issues once they return to home eg paperwork, kids, wife, house-maintenence etc, yet most people still need 8 hours sleep per night to function. Some companies will roster the minimum time off between duties.

c. There is no effective and easily-available method of detecting/measuring fatigue - either in yourself or in others - until you get to the 'nodding dog' stage, in which case it is too late; you should have been asleep hours ago!!

d. Sleep debt is culmative and insidious, while far too many people think they can overcome fatigue and are reluctant to admit they are tired.

e. It is a crew's duty to report if not fit to operate (Air Navigation Order) but some companies have been reluctant to accept fatigue as a valid reason.


7. Remember that airlines are businesses and they exist only to make money. Some airlines see crews just as resources to be used to acheive this aim and as such, some will target their staffing levels only to be sufficient to meet their needs and this will mean planning to use their crews right up to the maximum allowed. It is arguable that companies have a duty to ensure their employees are fit to drive home.

8. There is plenty of argument in Europe over suggested EU Working Time Directives - the airlines are up in arms, as they would have to employ more pilots - see also doctors hours and healthcare trusts!

Oh! And by the way, other countires (eg Ireland and the Americas) have it far worse than EU countries.... but they share the same airspace as us - remember that when you next fly!

Best of Luck!

[justanotherflyer]

Neither system (FTL nor FRMS) takes into account the fatigue induced by travelling to or from work 'under own steam'

Nor do they account for assignments, at a moment's notice, to distant airports, under 'own steam' and at one's own expense! Conditions, in other words, that would be totally unacceptable in other industries, and that cannot fail to add to accumulated, unconscious stress.

And conscious resentment.

[Marooned]

Widen your horizon...

Don't restrict your research to the UK only. Remember those of us who fly into the UK half asleep.

FTL (flight time limitations) are targets for the unscrupulous airlines who have no unions to dampen the full effects. Even then they 'interpret' the rules to maximize duty times. Throw in multiple time zones and you have some pretty bleary eyed crews flying around.

And now they have been handed the 'financial crisis' stick to beat us with it will only get worse... All of us, UK or otherwise, are being pushed to increase productivity even further despite some major increases in flying already.

[pool]

The best way to get the real picture would be to accompany a pilot through a typical period over at least 14 days. You should be on the flight deck with them all the time, trying to rest with them and trying to sleep with them throughout all time zones and godforsaken countries .... and finally drive home in your car, just to get convicted of driving under the influence of fatigue (as serious as alcohol in front of the law, by the way) if provocing a crash.

I'm aware that NO airline in the world would allow this, under safety concern pretexts, -> naturally.
Because they know that the journalist would come up with some horror live recount.

But again, to really get what's happening on the front, you should ask beeing a part of it for a while.
Remember the German journalist G. Wallraff? He did things like that undercover and boy were his recounts spectacular. And they initiated a lot!