Fatigue & journo asking for info
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks everyone for your comments, esp flipster - super-useful, thank you.
I am really looking for pilots who are prepared to share their experiences with me (I reiterate anonymously, if need be) so if anyone is happy to do this, please private message me. I can see from the other fatigue threads here which I have read that it is quite a big issue, but my journalistic standards (!) prevent me from just copying and pasting anonymous comments from internet message boards. (And yes, it is for the Guardian - good detective work, that's the thing about having an unusual name.)
I am really looking for pilots who are prepared to share their experiences with me (I reiterate anonymously, if need be) so if anyone is happy to do this, please private message me. I can see from the other fatigue threads here which I have read that it is quite a big issue, but my journalistic standards (!) prevent me from just copying and pasting anonymous comments from internet message boards. (And yes, it is for the Guardian - good detective work, that's the thing about having an unusual name.)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Westminster
Age: 23
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Emine
Could I recommend that your article could include an examination of the conflicting interests of the regulator(s) in managing FTL. As you will know, or quickly discover, the Aviation Authorities are basically wholly owed subsidiaries of the Airlines that they "regulate". Clearly there has to be a balance between the commercial interests of the Airlines, and the management of safety, but the integrity of this process is entirely unbalanced by the fact that the regulators both individually, and as a whole, rely on the Airlines for their daily bread.
Regards.
Could I recommend that your article could include an examination of the conflicting interests of the regulator(s) in managing FTL. As you will know, or quickly discover, the Aviation Authorities are basically wholly owed subsidiaries of the Airlines that they "regulate". Clearly there has to be a balance between the commercial interests of the Airlines, and the management of safety, but the integrity of this process is entirely unbalanced by the fact that the regulators both individually, and as a whole, rely on the Airlines for their daily bread.
Regards.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flipster and Hubris, very good points and an accurate summary of the problems and real life implications.
While you're at it, add Nicolas Nassim Taleb's "The Black Swan" to your reading list. It's a very interesing book revolving around statistics, risks, risk taking and the ignorance of regulators and managers of an unlikely event to happen... 
Some helpful advice:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Havana
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JournalistUK
Ideally, I would like to speak to pilots with British airlines, or at least those who often fly in and out of UK airports
Good luck
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may also want to have a look at this - fairly old and there have been some changes / updates I'm sure, but indicates the wide differences between individual countries' regulations and, therefore, the fatigue issues affecting crews within different airlines...
FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS IN CIVIL AVIATION : A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF 26 NATIONAL REGULATIONS
FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS IN CIVIL AVIATION : A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF 26 NATIONAL REGULATIONS
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Widening horizons?
Why complicate things and drag worldwide questionable FTL's into the debate? We can't change any of 'their' regulations and don't the European FTL's already have enough shortcomings to begin with?
True, we are all sharing the same airspace, but in order to improve things you have to start somewhere and why not start here at home? Besides, how practical is it to accuse country X or Airline Y (from outside Europe/JAR) of unsafe rostering/FTL practices? Banning them from flying in Europe will merely lead to protectionism and retaliation and won't solve anything.
True, we are all sharing the same airspace, but in order to improve things you have to start somewhere and why not start here at home? Besides, how practical is it to accuse country X or Airline Y (from outside Europe/JAR) of unsafe rostering/FTL practices? Banning them from flying in Europe will merely lead to protectionism and retaliation and won't solve anything.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to look outside of the UK and perhaps out of Europe for cases of extreme fatigue. Think of all the foreign airlines that operate into British airport and ask yourself if their pilots are rested and not suffering from fatigue. It will make the whole fatigue issue here in the UK look like a storm in a tea cup.
Also remember that some states will publish an FTL scheme but for various political/commercial reasons, it is not adhered to by the operators nor enforced by the national regulator.
Also remember that some states will publish an FTL scheme but for various political/commercial reasons, it is not adhered to by the operators nor enforced by the national regulator.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK is as bad as anywhere
Also remember that some states will publish an FTL scheme but for various political/commercial reasons, it is not adhered to by the operators nor enforced by the national regulator.
Shocked? - I think this must go on everywhere - it's so well covered up ....
DB
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boston
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
commuting
I just want to add a piont regarding commuting in the U.S.
What sometimes happens (and i have seen it happen to friends) is that joe Smyth starts flying for a regional X with bases reasonably close to where he lives.Perhaps thats why he applied to work there. Then regional X loses/changes contracts and flies new/different routes sometimes under a different flag carrier a 1000 miles away, now Joe has to either move across the country for the new routes or commute. Add in the poor salary and moving to the new domiciles is not affordable. What now ?
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation.
What sometimes happens (and i have seen it happen to friends) is that joe Smyth starts flying for a regional X with bases reasonably close to where he lives.Perhaps thats why he applied to work there. Then regional X loses/changes contracts and flies new/different routes sometimes under a different flag carrier a 1000 miles away, now Joe has to either move across the country for the new routes or commute. Add in the poor salary and moving to the new domiciles is not affordable. What now ?
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: where I shouldn’t be
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pressman
Simply because there was another kind of lobby behind it. One, which has little to do with money but with the level of safety on our streets. It was a public demand to limit and control driving times due to a number of overworked truck drivers causing deadly accidents as they fell asleep on the wheel.
As it was pointed out, AEA is opposing any changes to the FTLs with their full political weight at the European Commission because of the feared associated cost.
As long as there is no accident – as the AEA pointed out – there is no need to change any rules and regulations. However, a non-event does not prove that a system is safe. As it has been stated so often, if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.
EASA is trying to do the right thing alright, but they are, as so many other organisations controlled by politicians which in turn are controlled by those with the cash (AEA in this instance).
The initial EASA FTL study was supposed to be followed up by an assessment of proposals for FTL schemes or certification specifications with the airlines. Although this assessment was to start in May, the call is still open today. This goes to show the political impact Subpart Q has on our EU regulator.
The European FTL issue has been a political one for the last 15 years or so and will likely to be one for the coming 15 years. As long as there is no accident where fatigue is cited as clear cause, as sad as this sounds, or IFALPA/ECA go on strike there won’t be any political motivation for tighter FTLs.
Ask yourself the question as to why truck drivers are driving less than we are flying.
As it was pointed out, AEA is opposing any changes to the FTLs with their full political weight at the European Commission because of the feared associated cost.
As long as there is no accident – as the AEA pointed out – there is no need to change any rules and regulations. However, a non-event does not prove that a system is safe. As it has been stated so often, if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.
EASA is trying to do the right thing alright, but they are, as so many other organisations controlled by politicians which in turn are controlled by those with the cash (AEA in this instance).
The initial EASA FTL study was supposed to be followed up by an assessment of proposals for FTL schemes or certification specifications with the airlines. Although this assessment was to start in May, the call is still open today. This goes to show the political impact Subpart Q has on our EU regulator.
The European FTL issue has been a political one for the last 15 years or so and will likely to be one for the coming 15 years. As long as there is no accident where fatigue is cited as clear cause, as sad as this sounds, or IFALPA/ECA go on strike there won’t be any political motivation for tighter FTLs.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"What sometimes happens (and i have seen it happen to friends) is that joe Smyth starts flying for a regional X with bases reasonably close to where he lives.Perhaps thats why he applied to work there. Then regional X loses/changes contracts and flies new/different routes sometimes under a different flag carrier a 1000 miles away, now Joe has to either move across the country for the new routes or commute. Add in the poor salary and moving to the new domiciles is not affordable. What now ?
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation."
People move all the time in pursuit of non-flying jobs, even low-paid individuals (and then it's called "migration"). The difference is that airline pilots can deadhead--commute for free. If they had to pay for their rides, you can bet they'd quickly find a way to move.
While in no way an excuse for flying fatigued, again poor salaries and conditions conspire to make it an impossible situation."
People move all the time in pursuit of non-flying jobs, even low-paid individuals (and then it's called "migration"). The difference is that airline pilots can deadhead--commute for free. If they had to pay for their rides, you can bet they'd quickly find a way to move.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Here today, elsewhere tomorrow
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue and commute/SLF
True that people paid lower wages than pilots do move to follow their job, or the next job, but the regional industry changes so quickly in the US some crew would have had to move two or three times a year if it were not for commuting.
At the same time, there has to be a limit. I think we can all agree a red-eye straight off some skiing just before a shift isn't the wisest way to avoid fatigue either (Colgan). Question is, as always, where is the line ?
Fatigue would be paid more attention by the powers-that-be if SLF cared more than just after a serious accident too, but it's the opposite. Just recently I was among the masses when a crew decided he hadn't had enough rest due to renovations at the hotel (sounds familiar?) and had the TATL flight delayed. Riot nearly ensued!
At the same time, there has to be a limit. I think we can all agree a red-eye straight off some skiing just before a shift isn't the wisest way to avoid fatigue either (Colgan). Question is, as always, where is the line ?
Fatigue would be paid more attention by the powers-that-be if SLF cared more than just after a serious accident too, but it's the opposite. Just recently I was among the masses when a crew decided he hadn't had enough rest due to renovations at the hotel (sounds familiar?) and had the TATL flight delayed. Riot nearly ensued!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: US
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the families can do something too
I lost my brother in OG269 in Sept 2007. The immediate cause of the crash was pilot fatigue, as the pilots had flown well in excess of the 110 hours allowed by Thai law for the month. As far as I know - unless the NTSB has done it - no one made any attempt to calculate the actual duty time. Once we families made certain the Thai CAA couldn't blame wind shear (we published the blackbox info), the government moved to blame the pilots, attempting to let the issue die with the dead.
All modern governments depend on a trusted aviation system. Even in the worst environments, commercial aircraft are so safe and have so much redundancy, crashes are infrequent. Therefore, a government can address issues or they can obfuscate issues. Obfuscation is very tempting and probably rather frequent. Meanwhile, an uniformed public is unable to judge and is unable to improve aviation safety. All the public can do is feel a crash is luck (or unluck) of the draw.
We, the families who lost loved ones in the worst of circumstances, can insist upon getting to the truth. With the Internet, we can communicate the truth. To use my situation as an example, via pprune and other mechanisms, we were able to obtain the blackbox, proof of regular check-ride fraud, the pilots' scheduled hours, the pilots' schedules as given to the NTSB, and video of the Thai CAA being informed and taking no action. We can prove the insurance company was fully informed, but continues to provide insurance because it is profitable, etc.) Not only can we learn the truth, we publish the truth and we insist upon the truth. Look what the families accomplished with 3 days of hearings on the Colgan crash! We families must insist the NTSB document cause well beyond "flight crew error". We wish the media would do so as well.
For those interested: www.InvestigateUdom.com
All modern governments depend on a trusted aviation system. Even in the worst environments, commercial aircraft are so safe and have so much redundancy, crashes are infrequent. Therefore, a government can address issues or they can obfuscate issues. Obfuscation is very tempting and probably rather frequent. Meanwhile, an uniformed public is unable to judge and is unable to improve aviation safety. All the public can do is feel a crash is luck (or unluck) of the draw.
We, the families who lost loved ones in the worst of circumstances, can insist upon getting to the truth. With the Internet, we can communicate the truth. To use my situation as an example, via pprune and other mechanisms, we were able to obtain the blackbox, proof of regular check-ride fraud, the pilots' scheduled hours, the pilots' schedules as given to the NTSB, and video of the Thai CAA being informed and taking no action. We can prove the insurance company was fully informed, but continues to provide insurance because it is profitable, etc.) Not only can we learn the truth, we publish the truth and we insist upon the truth. Look what the families accomplished with 3 days of hearings on the Colgan crash! We families must insist the NTSB document cause well beyond "flight crew error". We wish the media would do so as well.
For those interested: www.InvestigateUdom.com
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And let's not forget those airlines with immaginative FTL accounting e.g. zero-ing everyone on 1st April rather than using a rolling 12 months to calculate the 'annual' limit. The same can be said about the meaning of a 'week'. For some people this does not mean a rolling 7 days???? The world is a strange place. It does seem odd when lawyers are so tight looking over our shoulders all the time. but they let unscrupulous pratices from the employers go by.
What has always been a fact is that FTL's have expanded to match the endurance of a/c. "It's the profit stupid." For long-haul with beds this might not be too bad, but the short-haul bean counters use it to an unreasonable limit.
What has always been a fact is that FTL's have expanded to match the endurance of a/c. "It's the profit stupid." For long-haul with beds this might not be too bad, but the short-haul bean counters use it to an unreasonable limit.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this beating of gums over fatigue.
I have the distinct feeling that perhaps (more) than a few pilots simply don't want to work the hours for which they were hired in the first place.
Fatigued?
Call in and say so.
Works for me.
Head shed says...OK, go to HOTAC and advise when fully rested.
No, if, ands, or buts about it.
Done.
Fly fatigued and have an incident/accident...the company will right and truly hang you out to dry.
I have the distinct feeling that perhaps (more) than a few pilots simply don't want to work the hours for which they were hired in the first place.
Fatigued?
Call in and say so.
Works for me.
Head shed says...OK, go to HOTAC and advise when fully rested.
No, if, ands, or buts about it.
Done.
Fly fatigued and have an incident/accident...the company will right and truly hang you out to dry.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fly fatigued and have an incident/accident...the company will right and truly hang you out to dry
if we do and if we don’t! Like the AF447 crew. I wonder how fit they were handling their situation at 4am local CET notwithstanding the fact that they surely kept to their minimum crew rest time…
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It’s one thing to cope with it under a decent FTL regime and another under ludicrous minimum times for rest. Like a fellow earlier said; bus and truck drivers (on the street) have more stringent rules than we have.
Regardless of long or short haul. I remember times waking up in bed remembering how I landed and the debriefing but have no recollection of how I was driving home… and I am not the only one with this experience.
Anyone saying that this is a safe condition is nuts! For you say cope with it or get out sound much like management. Just that management that is skimming of too much cash and willing to compromise safety for a bit more. A I right???
Regardless of long or short haul. I remember times waking up in bed remembering how I landed and the debriefing but have no recollection of how I was driving home… and I am not the only one with this experience.
Anyone saying that this is a safe condition is nuts! For you say cope with it or get out sound much like management. Just that management that is skimming of too much cash and willing to compromise safety for a bit more. A I right???