BBC TV segment on US Regional airlines safety
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"Most people I know are stunned when they find out what RJ crews make"
Colgan appears to be paying F/O's in first year maybe 21 bucks an hour.
That poor lady made, perhaps $25 bucks to fly that Dash 8 from EWR to BUF?
Dear God....no wonder she lived at home with her parents and husband on the other side of the country.
Colgan appears to be paying F/O's in first year maybe 21 bucks an hour.
That poor lady made, perhaps $25 bucks to fly that Dash 8 from EWR to BUF?
Dear God....no wonder she lived at home with her parents and husband on the other side of the country.
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Respectfully to all of you guys and in particular to 411's comments, I believe you guys are missing the point.
While more pay at the regional level and especially at the loading side of an airplane might be nice it is just the magnifier of a bigger problem.
The real issue is that there is no one to enforce anything anymore. The FAA has stopped enforcing any kind of a law and the form of retroactive punishments (using fines) does not help anyone nor does it change airline practices. More over considering the FAA is willing to look the other way about alot of these practices.
Reduced rest in the FARs was invented as a way to help an airline get back on track recovering from weather or some other schedule threatening event. Not as a normal everyday tool to be used by crew planning departments in advance. It should be mandated that these reduced rest nights cannot be scheduled in advance and have to be documented as to why they were needed, allowing only a very small quota per airline, per quarter.
It is a joke that after a 6-7 legs day (and yes we do that with the RJs thanks to 6 minutes takeoff to touchdown flights now days), you show up at an airport where the hotel shuttle takes 15 minutes each way, and once they arrive at the airport you need to be waiting for another crew or two or three or even four and only then be taken to the hotel. Wait until everybody checks in. Get your room key. Prepare mentally for tomorrow early show time because you need to be there at 5:10AM and the shuttle only runs every hour or half hour. So you end up taking a 4:30AM van.
I AM SORRY. THIS IS NOT REST. No matter how you want to look at it, you are absolutely not rested and there is no way to twist that.
Now add to all this bubble every day policies that the company mandates and the FAA approves without even reading.
For instance:
1) [let's start with something light here] - Flight numbers. Every now and then the regionals go about changing their whole numbering arrays as dictated by a mainline carrier. In my carrier we recently underwent such a thing. So now we have flight 3332 following flight 3133, following flight 3331, while flight 3342 is departing at the same time while flight 3242 is descending right on top of 3342 which just departed. You think I'm kidding? I can tell you which airport approach controls to monitor. Mix that with the above mentioned night's rest in instrument conditions and you got a disaster waiting to happen.
2) Food. FAA requires us to get food as part of the IMSAFE determination. Some of our planes don't even have cookies or crackers. Try to go get food at 5AM at any small town airport. Good luck.
3) What I like to call the Russian roulette. In several regionals you get policies by which you live. Some of them go to the extent of telling you that if you feel fatigued you should call it in, however between 24-48 hours after wards it is your responsibility to call your manager and talk about it. If you don't you get disciplinary action. If you do call it in on time, you are then granted the opportunity to present your case and if THEY deem it justified you are pardoned and get to keep your job with no actions taken against you. If they don't however, well you just won yourself another meeting to discuss the action that's about to be taken against you. I heard other people mention 5 times rule..... in some airlines it's as low as 3.
4) Many many more examples that I would love to document. If anyone is interested please feel free to contact me. I have rims of policies and approved airline manuals that are a laughing joke because it is so evident no one ever bothered to look at them closely before approving them.
While more pay at the regional level and especially at the loading side of an airplane might be nice it is just the magnifier of a bigger problem.
The real issue is that there is no one to enforce anything anymore. The FAA has stopped enforcing any kind of a law and the form of retroactive punishments (using fines) does not help anyone nor does it change airline practices. More over considering the FAA is willing to look the other way about alot of these practices.
Reduced rest in the FARs was invented as a way to help an airline get back on track recovering from weather or some other schedule threatening event. Not as a normal everyday tool to be used by crew planning departments in advance. It should be mandated that these reduced rest nights cannot be scheduled in advance and have to be documented as to why they were needed, allowing only a very small quota per airline, per quarter.
It is a joke that after a 6-7 legs day (and yes we do that with the RJs thanks to 6 minutes takeoff to touchdown flights now days), you show up at an airport where the hotel shuttle takes 15 minutes each way, and once they arrive at the airport you need to be waiting for another crew or two or three or even four and only then be taken to the hotel. Wait until everybody checks in. Get your room key. Prepare mentally for tomorrow early show time because you need to be there at 5:10AM and the shuttle only runs every hour or half hour. So you end up taking a 4:30AM van.
I AM SORRY. THIS IS NOT REST. No matter how you want to look at it, you are absolutely not rested and there is no way to twist that.
Now add to all this bubble every day policies that the company mandates and the FAA approves without even reading.
For instance:
1) [let's start with something light here] - Flight numbers. Every now and then the regionals go about changing their whole numbering arrays as dictated by a mainline carrier. In my carrier we recently underwent such a thing. So now we have flight 3332 following flight 3133, following flight 3331, while flight 3342 is departing at the same time while flight 3242 is descending right on top of 3342 which just departed. You think I'm kidding? I can tell you which airport approach controls to monitor. Mix that with the above mentioned night's rest in instrument conditions and you got a disaster waiting to happen.
2) Food. FAA requires us to get food as part of the IMSAFE determination. Some of our planes don't even have cookies or crackers. Try to go get food at 5AM at any small town airport. Good luck.
3) What I like to call the Russian roulette. In several regionals you get policies by which you live. Some of them go to the extent of telling you that if you feel fatigued you should call it in, however between 24-48 hours after wards it is your responsibility to call your manager and talk about it. If you don't you get disciplinary action. If you do call it in on time, you are then granted the opportunity to present your case and if THEY deem it justified you are pardoned and get to keep your job with no actions taken against you. If they don't however, well you just won yourself another meeting to discuss the action that's about to be taken against you. I heard other people mention 5 times rule..... in some airlines it's as low as 3.
4) Many many more examples that I would love to document. If anyone is interested please feel free to contact me. I have rims of policies and approved airline manuals that are a laughing joke because it is so evident no one ever bothered to look at them closely before approving them.
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Eliptic - a good name for you - your arguments go round in circles, I think I might just put you on ignore.
I can see the validity of your arguments, there are many families whereby the main bread winner of all different vocations are on minimum wage where the partner then also has to work to maintain a decent standard of living.
However the responsibilities of learning to fly, the training and expense involved, the level of maturity and professionlism required does lead me to believe that reduction of cost should be achieved without the expense of ruducing a professional's salary to that of a non professionally quallified role.
I think the question should not be whether the FAA should be establishing whether the flight crew have enough to live on, but whether the FAA are establishing all flights when departing have a safely rested crew performing the duties. If the FAA establish that there is an issue in this respect it is their role to mitigate such circumstances, whilst I would very much doubt a directive on salary would be a consequence some legislation on greater rest times could be brought in ensuring that sufficient rest has been achieved especially those with secondary roles to suplement their income.
Those working a second role to suplement their income would be required disclose this and to have sufficient rest before their primary role is undertaken (Forgive me if this is already the case I am not a pilot). This would definately have a fincancial impact on the low cost carriers and because as a result more crew would have to be brought onto the books. I think it would then lead the management with a decision as to whether to prevent this extra employment of resources by reducing the requirement for a second employment by paying better.
It think it is a whole can of worms really as this could lead to the hiring process being biased against those with families etc.
My overall thought on this is that for the situation to be truly corrected the only way is for the passengers to start paying a more appropriate fare for the journeys involved so that professionals can be paid appropriately. Our objective as SLF is to get from A to B safely and I dont think alot of us have any idea of the logistics of flying and the implications of the beating down of ticket prices - SLF are not typically aware what happened with this model in Indonesia and what corners were cut to attain such low prices.
411A,
Under this 'reasoning', the FAA might then be responsible for the alleged inability of lower paid First Officers to pay their bills, because they have a wife and a couple of children to feed.
Under this 'reasoning', the FAA might then be responsible for the alleged inability of lower paid First Officers to pay their bills, because they have a wife and a couple of children to feed.
I can see the validity of your arguments, there are many families whereby the main bread winner of all different vocations are on minimum wage where the partner then also has to work to maintain a decent standard of living.
However the responsibilities of learning to fly, the training and expense involved, the level of maturity and professionlism required does lead me to believe that reduction of cost should be achieved without the expense of ruducing a professional's salary to that of a non professionally quallified role.
I think the question should not be whether the FAA should be establishing whether the flight crew have enough to live on, but whether the FAA are establishing all flights when departing have a safely rested crew performing the duties. If the FAA establish that there is an issue in this respect it is their role to mitigate such circumstances, whilst I would very much doubt a directive on salary would be a consequence some legislation on greater rest times could be brought in ensuring that sufficient rest has been achieved especially those with secondary roles to suplement their income.
Those working a second role to suplement their income would be required disclose this and to have sufficient rest before their primary role is undertaken (Forgive me if this is already the case I am not a pilot). This would definately have a fincancial impact on the low cost carriers and because as a result more crew would have to be brought onto the books. I think it would then lead the management with a decision as to whether to prevent this extra employment of resources by reducing the requirement for a second employment by paying better.
It think it is a whole can of worms really as this could lead to the hiring process being biased against those with families etc.
My overall thought on this is that for the situation to be truly corrected the only way is for the passengers to start paying a more appropriate fare for the journeys involved so that professionals can be paid appropriately. Our objective as SLF is to get from A to B safely and I dont think alot of us have any idea of the logistics of flying and the implications of the beating down of ticket prices - SLF are not typically aware what happened with this model in Indonesia and what corners were cut to attain such low prices.
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Where did I imply this? Nowhere to begin with, so be factual. Pilots do their part, the FAA does not and casually ignores airlines wrongdoing.
The FAA primary duty is (or should be) to ensure air travel safety by enforcing existing regulations when and where it needs to be done. That is not the case to begin with. Any individual not complying with the law is accountable. Evidently, airlines management and the FAA are not.
The problem today is that, all regional airline pilots in the US have to deal with high levels of fatigue at some point during each trip due to either insufficient legal rules to prevent that from happening or lack of enforcement action from the authority in charge, namely the FAA. Now, here is the deal, you fly a four day trip with unexpected delays and resulting reduced rest periods at an outstation. What do you think happens after calling in fatigue a couple of times for that very specific reason. If you do not know, then you have no clue as to what regional airline flying is all about and here is the answer. You will end up being terminated, especially during your probation year and the airline is not even held accountable. Do you believe the FAA is not well aware of the problem? I flew for the regional for many years before moving to greener pastures and disgust is the only word that comes to my mind when I think about it.
The FAA primary duty is (or should be) to ensure air travel safety by enforcing existing regulations when and where it needs to be done. That is not the case to begin with. Any individual not complying with the law is accountable. Evidently, airlines management and the FAA are not.
The problem today is that, all regional airline pilots in the US have to deal with high levels of fatigue at some point during each trip due to either insufficient legal rules to prevent that from happening or lack of enforcement action from the authority in charge, namely the FAA. Now, here is the deal, you fly a four day trip with unexpected delays and resulting reduced rest periods at an outstation. What do you think happens after calling in fatigue a couple of times for that very specific reason. If you do not know, then you have no clue as to what regional airline flying is all about and here is the answer. You will end up being terminated, especially during your probation year and the airline is not even held accountable. Do you believe the FAA is not well aware of the problem? I flew for the regional for many years before moving to greener pastures and disgust is the only word that comes to my mind when I think about it.
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My overall thought on this is that for the situation to be truly corrected the only way is for the passengers to start paying a more appropriate fare for the journeys involved so that professionals can be paid appropriately.
Maybe better to have a option "do you want a safe pilot flying" instead of the stupid C02 contribution when booking your ticket on line.
Ds. donīt shoot the messenger Ps
