CNN Reports FEDEX crash in Tokyo
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If the nose gear had collapsed, would it have been a different outcome? Of course the aircraft would be written off, but perhaps survivable by the crew? I'm surprised to see the nose gear still attached to the airframe.
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From Steve Michell's post....
Steve;
I too, have remained detached from the rampant far-afield speculation in the previous 12 pages until now.
Excellent post, especially the last bit. Longitudinal attitude. As you know, sitting that far forward and up high, you may not be aware (in a hands-full scenario such as this) what the back end is doing (longitudinally speaking).
You'd be aware of the bounce, but not how high.... I believe is what you are saying.
I can remember the first landing from up there, being amazed that the mains were touching down when I was still up here. That feeling.
Has anyone thought of an LSAS failure? The wind was strong enough to preclude an autoland so the LSAS should've kicked in as soon as the autoflight was disconnected. What if it didn't work as expected.
How about the following. How aware is any pilot of the longitudinal attitude of an airplane in the flare? A gust after a bounce could've sent the wings flying again without the pilots being aware of the aircrafts' negative pitch attitude developing, the flight deck still at an altitude above the runway that would've been expected.
Just a thought.
SM
How about the following. How aware is any pilot of the longitudinal attitude of an airplane in the flare? A gust after a bounce could've sent the wings flying again without the pilots being aware of the aircrafts' negative pitch attitude developing, the flight deck still at an altitude above the runway that would've been expected.
Just a thought.
SM
I too, have remained detached from the rampant far-afield speculation in the previous 12 pages until now.
Excellent post, especially the last bit. Longitudinal attitude. As you know, sitting that far forward and up high, you may not be aware (in a hands-full scenario such as this) what the back end is doing (longitudinally speaking).
You'd be aware of the bounce, but not how high.... I believe is what you are saying.
I can remember the first landing from up there, being amazed that the mains were touching down when I was still up here. That feeling.
Last edited by singpilot; 24th Mar 2009 at 21:56.
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Philbky,
It's not just FedEx that weren't "troubled" by the poor performance of the MD-11. There are some other "big names" in there too who found them a competent freighter. UPS and Lufthansa (who bought them new) to name two.
It's not just FedEx that weren't "troubled" by the poor performance of the MD-11. There are some other "big names" in there too who found them a competent freighter. UPS and Lufthansa (who bought them new) to name two.
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Just hope that, with these incidents in mind, the fuselage stretch/max wt. increase/new wing/etc engineering necessary to create the 747-8 doesn't involve any control/stability issues creeping into the 747's friendly handling qualities......
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PIP
If I'm not mistaken, the often mentioned performance shortcomings were addressed through the PIP - Performance Improvement Programs, and after PIP-Phase 3 seems the beast actually performed better than originally advertised.
Off course, this all came too late and the damage to the sales could not be undone.
I spent almost 4 years working with MD11s and the crew were all very enthusiastic about it. Respecting and knowing your ride is the keyword here.
BF
Off course, this all came too late and the damage to the sales could not be undone.
I spent almost 4 years working with MD11s and the crew were all very enthusiastic about it. Respecting and knowing your ride is the keyword here.
BF
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Recording Approaches
Hi All
A rather obvious suggestion but would it not assist accident investigators if cameras were placed at each end of the threshold filming (on a 30 min digitial loop) the approach and subsequent landing ? Surely this would assist everyone involved in improving flight safety ? We should not have to rely on CCTV cameras scattered around the airport to provide poor images.
A rather obvious suggestion but would it not assist accident investigators if cameras were placed at each end of the threshold filming (on a 30 min digitial loop) the approach and subsequent landing ? Surely this would assist everyone involved in improving flight safety ? We should not have to rely on CCTV cameras scattered around the airport to provide poor images.
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Nose gear. If the NG had collapsed or sheared, the AOA would have reduced, the nose may have stayed on the ground, the fuselage absorbing energy more smoothly than a rigid strut. The NG/Nose bounce is dramatic. It increased AOA rapidly at a time when the a/c was yawing left and starting to roll. Reloading the wings was the downfall of the a/c. IMHO
AF
AF
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Yes, VR-HHE, in this day & age, very surprising, seeing that every high-street in the UK seems to have about half a dozen or more!
Must be very frustrating to have to view long distance oblique vids, if you're an accident investigator...
Could also have saved a lot of um and arring in the Madrid Barajas accident too.. and so much immediate press speculation (engines, thrust reversers etc)
Must be very frustrating to have to view long distance oblique vids, if you're an accident investigator...
Could also have saved a lot of um and arring in the Madrid Barajas accident too.. and so much immediate press speculation (engines, thrust reversers etc)
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VR-HHE
I couldn't agree anymore, were can we suggest this to?
Recording Approaches
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi All
A rather obvious suggestion but would it not assist accident investigators if cameras were placed at each end of the threshold filming (on a 30 min digitial loop) the approach and subsequent landing ? Surely this would assist everyone involved in improving flight safety ? We should not have to rely on CCTV cameras scattered around the airport to provide poor images
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi All
A rather obvious suggestion but would it not assist accident investigators if cameras were placed at each end of the threshold filming (on a 30 min digitial loop) the approach and subsequent landing ? Surely this would assist everyone involved in improving flight safety ? We should not have to rely on CCTV cameras scattered around the airport to provide poor images
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Re:216
I doubt you have every worked in an a/c design office, because nobody positions a wing on anything other than 'where it should be' and there's only one place which is 'where it should be
One was an ex-pat for JAL (IASCO) who killed himself trying to do a low level loop in a stock (225 Continental) Stearman. Nice guy, but he was always bitching about how MD got the 10 wrong. He said that the CC hated it because the fuselage was always in a 6-7 degree nose up attitude in cruise. He blamed the wing/fuselage attach angle.
The galley carts weighed about 700 lbs. so it was a tough climb going forward and no brakes heading aft for the CC.
When the 11 came out, apparently the avionics created all sorts of interesting situations, however, the wing/fuselage attach angle had been corrected.
All of these pilots are/were good sticks -- most flying their own taildraggers when home. I never heard a complaint about the handling of either the 10 or the 11 other than the deck angle in cruise on the 10.
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Just another wag but say the FO was landing, bounced and decided to go around and the captain took control and tried to salvage the landing by putting it down. Looking at the video the bounce seemed too high for just a hard landing. Looking at the video makes me think one pilot flying the whole landing would not have allowed the pitch up then pitch down to land on the nose gear by himself. I know, wait for the FDR and CVR.
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"If the machine is so good, why did the major carriers who bought it spend zillions getting rid as fast as possible."
I have been with 3 MD-11 air carriers, I have held several positions, not a pilot but spent more than four years as a Maintenance Rep. or Flight Mechanic. Plenty of time to discuss with pilots and observe the aircraft charartistics.
To answer your question, the MD-11 was a reliability nightmare as it was cutting edge technology when first delivered. It had tons of "nuisance" pireps that did not have the support from MDC and especially Boeing to iron out all the issues in time. Boeing baught MDC to shut the MD-11 down to sell B-777's. Especially after the lack of tech support the guys on the line lost alot of support to resolve these issues.
EG: The fly by wire aircraft required constant monitoring of systems for given feedback (voltage and discrete) thresholds to log a failure. This was uncharted territory and as minimal faults generated by fault monotoring systems logged failures that were not actually significant but still out of design spec. It became a hard aircraft to maintain. Especially for PAX airlines who were operating many more aircraft that were not like it at all.
Fedex has been operating the aircraft for years and were able to apply the "nuts and bolts" approach to understand the aircraft better as they had been operating DC-10's for years as their "meat and potatoes" of heavy long haul aircraft.
I started out with an ACMI outfit that allowed me to work with DC-10's and MD-11's exclusively. This was great because the maintenance and flight crews could gain a better understanding of the aircraft. Flight crews became knowledgable of nuisance faults and maintenance could work better with them to resolve the issues for better reliability.
I currently maintain purely autopilot and navigation systems on the MD-11 and a few other airframes.
I do though miss eating breakfast at altitude watching a sunrise from the cockpit of this wonderfull machine. Those big windows give you the best view possible.
I have been with 3 MD-11 air carriers, I have held several positions, not a pilot but spent more than four years as a Maintenance Rep. or Flight Mechanic. Plenty of time to discuss with pilots and observe the aircraft charartistics.
To answer your question, the MD-11 was a reliability nightmare as it was cutting edge technology when first delivered. It had tons of "nuisance" pireps that did not have the support from MDC and especially Boeing to iron out all the issues in time. Boeing baught MDC to shut the MD-11 down to sell B-777's. Especially after the lack of tech support the guys on the line lost alot of support to resolve these issues.
EG: The fly by wire aircraft required constant monitoring of systems for given feedback (voltage and discrete) thresholds to log a failure. This was uncharted territory and as minimal faults generated by fault monotoring systems logged failures that were not actually significant but still out of design spec. It became a hard aircraft to maintain. Especially for PAX airlines who were operating many more aircraft that were not like it at all.
Fedex has been operating the aircraft for years and were able to apply the "nuts and bolts" approach to understand the aircraft better as they had been operating DC-10's for years as their "meat and potatoes" of heavy long haul aircraft.
I started out with an ACMI outfit that allowed me to work with DC-10's and MD-11's exclusively. This was great because the maintenance and flight crews could gain a better understanding of the aircraft. Flight crews became knowledgable of nuisance faults and maintenance could work better with them to resolve the issues for better reliability.
I currently maintain purely autopilot and navigation systems on the MD-11 and a few other airframes.
I do though miss eating breakfast at altitude watching a sunrise from the cockpit of this wonderfull machine. Those big windows give you the best view possible.
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There is a lot of technical detail coming out of this thread by very knowledgeable people. But the straight fact is that the wing was still capable of generating a lot of lift after the first bounce despite whatever lift dump, flap or other high tech gadget was deployed.
The touchdown speed is interesting.
The touchdown speed is interesting.
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From Unusual Attitude The extraordinary accident history of the MD-11 and MD-10
By Kieran Daly on March 23, 2009 10:28 AM |
It's impossible to ignore the history of landing-related accidents to the MD-11 and MD-10 series of aircraft. Plus at least one DC-10 loss that may be relevant. Some of these bear remarkable resemblances to today's accident at Narita. Others may be pertinent for knock-on reasons. I find it hard to think of a comparable pattern of serious, related accidents to a single type - particularly one not even built in large numbers. Much discussion of landing the MD-11 here. (...)
More links and info at the original source, here.
By Kieran Daly on March 23, 2009 10:28 AM |
It's impossible to ignore the history of landing-related accidents to the MD-11 and MD-10 series of aircraft. Plus at least one DC-10 loss that may be relevant. Some of these bear remarkable resemblances to today's accident at Narita. Others may be pertinent for knock-on reasons. I find it hard to think of a comparable pattern of serious, related accidents to a single type - particularly one not even built in large numbers. Much discussion of landing the MD-11 here. (...)
More links and info at the original source, here.
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Can't people forgodsakes stop posting guesses that all the cargo slid aft, or that the crew fought each other for control, or that the tires were mistakenly hyperinflated and caused the initial rebound? "Imagine this scenario..." Yeah, right.
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Interesting - DCA04MA082
Stepwilk, yours is a very common post, and I understand your sentiments. But, you probably aren't aware of the value of such speculation.
I believe it's not for infantile amusement. What we see by all this to-ing and fro-ing with scenarios/what-ifs is people are trying to learn from this experience and share knowledge so that it doesn't happen to them.
Most people in here are or have been operating crews that really have noble intent - to not crash.
I believe it's not for infantile amusement. What we see by all this to-ing and fro-ing with scenarios/what-ifs is people are trying to learn from this experience and share knowledge so that it doesn't happen to them.
Most people in here are or have been operating crews that really have noble intent - to not crash.
A rather obvious suggestion but would it not assist accident investigators if cameras were placed at each end of the threshold filming (on a 30 min digitial loop) the approach and subsequent landing ? Surely this would assist everyone involved in improving flight safety ? We should not have to rely on CCTV cameras scattered around the airport to provide poor images.
I'll take the DFDR and scrapes in the runway and aircraft any day over angled camera views on CCTV's.
These threads would be a lot shorter if we didn't have U-tube instant analysis
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Most people in here are or have been operating crews that really have noble intent - to not crash.
I was successful.
People, quit guessing.