EK407 Tailstrike @ ML

[brokenenglish]

I assure you that what Dofus says is true and request that you give it a rest.

As I have mentioned twice before they may well have resigned.

My real agenda is to counter the inappropriate and dubious details of the resignations posted on this board and maybe balance up the curious sense of relish that is a feature in the posts of some of the armchair experts and 'sayers of doom' in these two threads.

If you resign you are not automatically taken off the roster

Depends on whether they have been given the contractual 3 months or just 3 weeks as posted by one of the experts. If it's 3 weeks it should appear in the system.

[Smilin_Ed]

How Did V1 Get Into This?

In airlines that I am familiar with, once you hit V1 you go! ie You take off regardless of how much runway is left.

I don't know how V1 got into this. Of course you go if you hit V1. What I'm saying is that if you take off from an intersection, the runway you don't use is of no use. Try explaining to a court why you didn't use all of it..

[411A]

was fitted with a " STAN ",
I canīt remember what it stood for. However, as soon as the freighter...

STAN, Sum Total and Nose, also installed on many B707's
Worked quite well, if maintained properly.

[positivegee]

How Did V1 Get Into This?

Ed, I was just pointing out that the amount of runway ahead of you after passing V1 is irrelevant as you are committed to take-off.

Try explaining to a court why you didn't use all of it..

The court would understand because you were following company SOP's.

+G

[expat400]

"Upon reaching V1, the pilots of EK407 would have been expecting everything to continue as normal. At VR (I assume they got to that too) they would have pulled back and expected to lift off as it has always done. When lift-off did not occur, the PIC and EFFO would have faced a very unusual situation as to "what to do now"? Correctly, and this should be applauded, they decided to continue and apply TOGA thrust (apparently, from other posts) and avoided a disaster that could have cost many lives and the future of EK as an airline."

+G, although I would not normally recommend anyone in a heavy "Heavy" to abort after V1 I belive that in this case they were closer to a disaster because they DIDN'T abort. In reality they were way below the "true" V1 and thus they had plenty of runway to stop at.

SAS had a 767 in CPH once were ZFW was entered instead of TOW. When they reached "VR" (which was actually some 30 knots below the real VR) and the aircraft refused to lift off the captain aborted.

They stopped well before the runway end and we don't know if he would have been able to get airborne had he continued.

This is not said to discredit the EK crew's action. They acted correctly and in accordance with general knowledge and training. I just wanted to point out that in real life decisions are not always black and white.

Disclaimer: above reasoning is based on the assumption that wrong weight was entered in the FMC. I don't know if that's the case. The investigation will tell.

[Wiley]

expat 400, whilst I agree that the computer V1 may have been well under the accurate V1 for the runway/conditions/aircraft weight and configuration, I think most would agree that your comment

and thus they had plenty of runway to stop at

might be highly debatable.

You're making the Monday Morning Quarterback's classic mistake: coming up with a course of action, after two weeks to consider it and with considerably more information available to you than the crew had immediately to hand. Remember also that they had to make an immediate decision in a vaery dynamic situation.

The only circumstances that immediately come to mind that would make me consider aborting a takeoff after I had passed V1 would be a restriction in the flight controls or my only then becoming aware of a CofG so grossly out that I was having difficulty controlling the aircraft and therefore, that I considered might not be controllable after liftoff.

I think I speak for quite a few EK pilots when I say that I am deeply saddened if the story I have read here about the way the pilots were invited to resign is true. I would like to think that the management pilots who asked them to do so were doing so on orders from above and acting very much against their will.

One mark of a professional aviator is to drag an impossible situation - perhaps especially one that an error on his own part has caused - and get on with dealing with it and recovering the situation to a satisfactory outcome. It's sad to say, but true, that there'd be some (a small number), who'd throw their hands into the air and give up after making such a mistake. Whatever this crew did wrong, like the Jo'burg crew, they did a remarkable job of fixing their mistake.

If the company felt it had no further use of services, I'd like to think that that decision would not have been reached before the full report was to hand.

[GMDS]

The only circumstances that immediately come to mind that would make me consider aborting a takeoff after I had passed V1 would be a restriction in the flight controls or my only then becoming aware of a CofG so grossly out that I was having difficulty controlling the aircraft and therefore, that I considered might not be controllable after liftoff.

Wiley, I guess pulling on the stick at V1 and all that happens is a tailstrike, but no lift-off, seems to me could be interpreted as a problem controlling the aircraft! Therefore a decision to abort would not have been wrong, according to your own argument. Who guarantees you that the bird will fly even with hitting TOGA? There might be another reason for no lift-off than simply inadequate thrust.

I am not pretending to know which decision is the correct one, but both seem equally reasonable.

[BAOREY]

From the National Newspaper

ABU DHABI // The two Emirates Airline pilots involved in an emergency landing at Melbourne Airport last month have resigned. It was reported that the jet’s tail hit the runway on take-off.

In announcing the resignations, Boutros Boutros, the airline’s senior vice president for media relations, said he did not know why the pilots had quit. He declined to give further details.

“We do not like to talk about it because now the investigation is ongoing,” Mr Boutros said. “We have to wait for the investigation. I know that they resigned; that is all I can confirm.”

[expat400]

Wiley,

I'm not saying they should have acted differently. Read my post again:

"This is not said to discredit the EK crew's action. They acted correctly and in accordance with general knowledge and training."

But, if they were 20 knots under the true V1 they would have enough runway to stop on, don't you agree?

[jungle drums]

Re; expat400

Not if it had taken most of the available runway to get anywhere near V1 due to incorrectly flexed thrust.

Complex Ops Manual procedures are inherently dangerous. KISS & concentrating on 'killer' items keep us safe.

ISO managers don't like the word 'killer' - it doesn't look good in their matrix....but have a guess what happens if you miss them.

[NO LAND 3]

although I would not normally recommend anyone in a heavy "Heavy" to abort after V1 I belive that in this case they were closer to a disaster because they DIDN'T abort. In reality they were way below the "true" V1 and thus they had plenty of runway to stop at.

Well that would depend on several factors, for example a lower weight may give a lower flap setting and higher take-off speeds. Also field length and "optimisation" of speeds for climb performance will affect V1 and not necessarily quite the way you might expect. It depends on stop vs go performance.
However, even assuming the only variable as weight, a lower than required power setting would mean V1 was achieved far further down the runway. Furthermore the higher mass would further reduce the likelihood of stopping in time. In fact V1 is not even relevant as the problem would not manifest itself until VR and I am going to speculate that it would have been far too late to stop.
Note, if you will, that I have had an idle half an hour an half a glass of wine to think this through.
The crew on the day had zero time to think yet still managed to react correctly and recover the situation as well as possible under the circumstances. I hope if it ever happens to me I can do as well.

[blueloo]

As a matter of interest what is the minimum thrust/maximum derate available.

I am surprised even a heavily loaded bus, even with max derate would have had trouble getting airborne on a nearly 4 km long downhill sloping runway.

(of course safety heights etc would not be met and it may waffle into the air - but it should still accelerate without dramas...)


As an aside - what are minimum unstick tests for? To prove that an early over rotation will still be able to get airborne ? Do they test this at MTOW?

[expat400]

Wiley, Jungle drums and No land 3.

Fair enough, I understand what you're saying. And once again, I never critisized the actual crew. They did what was expected of them in a difficult situation.

I only wish they would have been treated the same as the SAS crew. That could have been an inspiration for all other EK pilots.

[Phantom Driver]

I am surprised even a heavily loaded bus, even with max derate would have had trouble getting airborne on a nearly 4 km long downhill sloping runway.

(of course safety heights etc would not be met and it may waffle into the air - but it should still accelerate without dramas...)

True; after all, the guys managed to get the groundhog A 340-3 airborne taking off from the taxiway (heading 250) rather than runway 32 at Anchorage some years back. Some 7000 ft available, but they still made it, albeit after running the tires over a snow "berm" (?) at the end. Continued on to Taipei without further ado (10 hr plus flight, so can't have been too light on takeoff). I believe the augmenting Capt on the jumpseat was a training guy, but I could be wrong; would need to reread the report.

Gremlins will forever be standing by waiting to trap the unwary.

[Smilin_Ed]

With a long enough runway and the right weight, etc., V1 could be after Vr. It doesn't happen often but it could. Therefore if it didn't fly at Vr, an abort would still be feasible. It's when V1 comes before Vr that you are committed at V1.

Also, if you make an intersection takeoff and you've computed V1 using the full length of the runway, then the computed V1 is no longer valid. It's something smaller.

G+

The court would understand because you were following company SOP's.

I wouldn't bet on it. Lawyers don't think that way. They would simply say the SOP created a dangerous situation and continue the lawsuit.

Intersection takeoffs mean you've negated some of your safety margin. If you choose to make one and you have an accident, you have put yourself in jeopardy for not choosing the safest course of action. Following SOP might help you keep your job with the company but won't help in a lawsuit.

[Wiley]

V1 could be after Vr

have I got your message right, Ed? You're suggesting there's someone out there (you?) who'd sit there and conduct a pre-takeoff brief that included the gem that he would abort AFTER the nose wheel was off the ground?

Not this little black duck - nor very many others who actually fly for a living, I think. What do you fly? MSFS?

[Dale Hardale]

Ed -

Out of curiosity, do you currently fly Airbus, Boeing/MD heavy aircraft ?

[canadair]

Ed.
V1 exceeds Vr???
great, well
its not what we train and its not what we expect so if you can quote an example, fantastic, but we are not conditioned for it, nor do we expect it.

Airline pilots train and expect 2 scenarios,
1 V1 = Vr
2 V1, accelerate, VR
anything else is not the norm.
That is the airline world. If you can show or have real world experience, it is not relevant to this scenario.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

This thread is clearly going to absolute farce.

We have one idiot suggesting V1 may be greater than Vr and another giving legal advice which is clearly imbecilic at best and dangerous at worst.

I wouldn't bet on it. Lawyers don't think that way. They would simply say the SOP created a dangerous situation and continue the lawsuit.

I've read some nonsense in my time, but that is a belter......

[Looseliver]

Hey, why don't you name-callers climb out of your cribs and contribute something other than hot air? If you don't like what's been contributed, then put up a counter argument.

Fools.