Pablo Mason (Spelled M.A.S.O.N) Tribunal
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Pablo
All I can say is that Pablo sounds like a bloody good bloke, if I had a job vacancy for him I would employ him like a shot.................our jets do not have cockpit doors and I am very happy about it that way.
There is a saying....rules are for the guidance of the wise and for the blind obedience of fools, there seems to be a heap of the latter pontificating on this one.
There is a saying....rules are for the guidance of the wise and for the blind obedience of fools, there seems to be a heap of the latter pontificating on this one.
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Discipline
Whenever I start questioning the value of flight discipline I reach for "Flight Discipline" by Tony Kern (who also produced an insightful analysis of the "Bud" Holland disaster). This text should be prescribed reading for anyone in a management position in any industry and doubly so for those who value professional and rigorous standards of flying and adherence to standard procedures. I guess the loose cannons are useful in extremis (e.g. war time) but really have no place in the operational structures required to ensure safe commercial flight.
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Ye gods, here we go again. 'Pablo's a great guy, blah de blah de blah'
Nobody doubts he is an interesting character. He broke rules repeatedly and paid the price. Which rule he broke for the third, final warning and hence dismissal does not actually matter in the slightest. It's just that he broke one that evokes a great deal of sentiment amongst most non pilot commentators.
Hawker - you employ him then. You aint gotta worry about the locked door SOP if you don't have them fitted. Ergo, Pablo can't break that rule.
And if I hear the adage about rules are for the guidance of wise etc again!!!
If you don't like rules/ SOP's etc then get the hell out of aviation, because they are there, they will be there and they will become ever more onerous. Having 65000 hrs spotting planes from the side of 23R at MAN does not make you an expert, nor does it allow you to comment on the rule structure we operate to. I would suggest that if you really hate the structures in place at most 1st world airlines that much, you choose caravan holidays from now on. Because every time you fly, it is those rules that try to ensure you and your family get from A to B as safely as possible!
Live with it or move on. Rather like this thread!!
ps. Yes Pablo did represent himself, he thought his personality and character would win the day. Kind of gives you an insight into the man????????
Nobody doubts he is an interesting character. He broke rules repeatedly and paid the price. Which rule he broke for the third, final warning and hence dismissal does not actually matter in the slightest. It's just that he broke one that evokes a great deal of sentiment amongst most non pilot commentators.
Hawker - you employ him then. You aint gotta worry about the locked door SOP if you don't have them fitted. Ergo, Pablo can't break that rule.
And if I hear the adage about rules are for the guidance of wise etc again!!!
If you don't like rules/ SOP's etc then get the hell out of aviation, because they are there, they will be there and they will become ever more onerous. Having 65000 hrs spotting planes from the side of 23R at MAN does not make you an expert, nor does it allow you to comment on the rule structure we operate to. I would suggest that if you really hate the structures in place at most 1st world airlines that much, you choose caravan holidays from now on. Because every time you fly, it is those rules that try to ensure you and your family get from A to B as safely as possible!
Live with it or move on. Rather like this thread!!
ps. Yes Pablo did represent himself, he thought his personality and character would win the day. Kind of gives you an insight into the man????????
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Fly
Having flown for 40 years and still do so I am very aware of a new breed of pilot who thinks that SOP's are the answer to everything. The type who will fly into a cliff if Air Traffic told him to do so. I bet Pablo would not do that, he would question it.
SOP's are great and a fantastic advance on 40 years ago, but they have killed quite a few who thought they were the only answer to flight safety. Lighten up a bit Fly...your job is supposed to be enjoyable, you sound like someone from a Dickens novel
SOP's are great and a fantastic advance on 40 years ago, but they have killed quite a few who thought they were the only answer to flight safety. Lighten up a bit Fly...your job is supposed to be enjoyable, you sound like someone from a Dickens novel
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Hawker
nobody disputes the advantages of SOP's nor the ability to question them when needed. What I find disheartening is 19 pages of drivel about an open and shut case of employment law.
If it were PM first mistake, it would have been tea and biccies. Nobody seems to grasp that.
As for lightening up - I only come on Pprune to realise that everywhere else is so much more fun!!!
Oh - and I am scrooge if you must know!
nobody disputes the advantages of SOP's nor the ability to question them when needed. What I find disheartening is 19 pages of drivel about an open and shut case of employment law.
If it were PM first mistake, it would have been tea and biccies. Nobody seems to grasp that.
As for lightening up - I only come on Pprune to realise that everywhere else is so much more fun!!!
Oh - and I am scrooge if you must know!
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With men like these you could fight a frigate.
Now why is it that when someone mentions Pablo Mason I am apt to think of Maurice Kirk? 
Now there's a man who makes Captain Mason look like an orthodox saint. Both British god love them and good aviators all.
.
Now there's a man who makes Captain Mason look like an orthodox saint. Both British god love them and good aviators all.
.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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I'm just amazed at all the BS that's bandied about concerning
this "incident".
Personally I wouldn't let Robbie Savage anywhere NEAR a
flight deck. IMHO the blokes a prima donna tosser, but NOT
a terrorist by any stretch of the imagination.
If he doesn't like flying send him by train and/or boat.
I just think that someone was just looking for an excuse to
get rid of Mason. And that's all there is to it.
this "incident".
Personally I wouldn't let Robbie Savage anywhere NEAR a
flight deck. IMHO the blokes a prima donna tosser, but NOT
a terrorist by any stretch of the imagination.
If he doesn't like flying send him by train and/or boat.
I just think that someone was just looking for an excuse to
get rid of Mason. And that's all there is to it.
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JamesT
Not my best wording. The example provided (120 in a 70) presents - for me - a higher risk scenario, with certainly less room for explanation. I suppose what I'm arguing here is the nature of the rules themselves, where they come from, and how they can be challenged.
If UK pilots think the rules are insane then surely the way to challenge them is to get the union to lobby Parliament, stating how other countries in the EU, as examples, do not have these same rules. Of course, since the (hmm, what's the right word here) PERCEIVED terror threat is higher in the UK for reasons I am sure Parliament would give you these rules regarding cockpit visits/locked doors/etc are in place.
After all, I guess, more of the recent "threats" have originated in the UK than in, say, Italy so the "rules" have made harsher in the UK due to these "threats". That's the argument that would be used by HMG, so until the perception that there is a risk of some nutters storming the cockpit has vanished the rules stay in place. And they have to be obeyed. End of.
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OK on the ground?
Whilst I was still flying I used to sometimes welcome SLF (especially the young keen ones, like I used to be) to the flight deck ON THE GROUND to show them the 'steering wheel' etc.
Fire axe at the ready, just in case.....
Is this still legal and OK or could you (technically) lose your job over it?
DB
Fire axe at the ready, just in case.....
Is this still legal and OK or could you (technically) lose your job over it?
DB
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If I had 9 points on my licence (I haven't got any - sorry). I would have gone at 80 mph maximum - like every body else.
But why is it ok to say "I shouldn't get hit because everyone else does it"? Does the fact that others drive aove the speed limit somehow make it ok to ignore the limit because YOU feel like it?
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Whilst I was still flying I used to sometimes welcome SLF (especially the young keen ones, like I used to be) to the flight deck ON THE GROUND to show them the 'steering wheel' etc.
Fire axe at the ready, just in case.....
Is this still legal and OK or could you (technically) lose your job over it?
DB
Fire axe at the ready, just in case.....
Is this still legal and OK or could you (technically) lose your job over it?
DB
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Principle...
Hellsbrink,
I think you are getting a bit deep here.
I admit I regularly exceed the national speed limit and am aware of ALL the 10% etc and points system but I seem to have accumulated nul points in 35 years (for that sort of motoring 'offence'). I was trying to point out how reasonably 'normal' people regularly 'break rules' without really knowing it or 'take a chance' and face the music if they get it wrong or miscalculate - PM?
Have you ever been over 70 mph in this country? - if so I wouldn't confess here - but lets have a bit of honesty, please.
For the record: I would rather be sitting with my family behind PM in the cockpit than some numpty who was 'only following orders' and as somebody so elloquently put it - steered the aircraft towards a theoretical cliff face.
The book even says one can vary SOP's but one has to be able to justify it! That's the law, as I understood it.
Are some 'rules' more sacred than others?
Just remember and say after me: 'You can't win....'
DB
I think you are getting a bit deep here.
I admit I regularly exceed the national speed limit and am aware of ALL the 10% etc and points system but I seem to have accumulated nul points in 35 years (for that sort of motoring 'offence'). I was trying to point out how reasonably 'normal' people regularly 'break rules' without really knowing it or 'take a chance' and face the music if they get it wrong or miscalculate - PM?
Have you ever been over 70 mph in this country? - if so I wouldn't confess here - but lets have a bit of honesty, please.
For the record: I would rather be sitting with my family behind PM in the cockpit than some numpty who was 'only following orders' and as somebody so elloquently put it - steered the aircraft towards a theoretical cliff face.
The book even says one can vary SOP's but one has to be able to justify it! That's the law, as I understood it.
Are some 'rules' more sacred than others?
Just remember and say after me: 'You can't win....'
DB
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Dream Buster
What you are not grasping, despite it being said repeatedly, is that he broke the rules, more than once, was CAUGHT, more than once, and THEN tried to worm his way out of the punishment.
Now, I'll ask again. If YOU were caught speeding would you say "it's a fair cop" or come out with some stupid, malebovinefaeces excuse as to why you should NOT face any penalty for speeding.
You see, that is what he did. He broke the rules, and not for the first time, was caught, not for the first time, was penalised, not for the first time, and in the end tried to get off with it on a technicality, which obviously didn't exist, AND tried to pass part of the blame onto someone else!! And somehow he has "been hard done by"?
If I was in your car, saying "go faster", would that be a valid excuse in court when YOU are hauled up for speeding?
What you are not grasping, despite it being said repeatedly, is that he broke the rules, more than once, was CAUGHT, more than once, and THEN tried to worm his way out of the punishment.
Now, I'll ask again. If YOU were caught speeding would you say "it's a fair cop" or come out with some stupid, malebovinefaeces excuse as to why you should NOT face any penalty for speeding.
You see, that is what he did. He broke the rules, and not for the first time, was caught, not for the first time, was penalised, not for the first time, and in the end tried to get off with it on a technicality, which obviously didn't exist, AND tried to pass part of the blame onto someone else!! And somehow he has "been hard done by"?
If I was in your car, saying "go faster", would that be a valid excuse in court when YOU are hauled up for speeding?
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I'd like to be sat behind someone with a good sense of self-preservation. AFAIK it was the navigator that ejected the pair of them from PM's Tornado. If that is the case then I'm not sure he has much of one.
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DB
I didn't think the allowing of non aircrew onto the flight deck was part of a SOP, hence not up for varying. I understood it was mandated by the CAA.
I would like to meet the bloke and make up my own mind but from what I have read, at this moment I would say he hasn't a leg to stand on
I didn't think the allowing of non aircrew onto the flight deck was part of a SOP, hence not up for varying. I understood it was mandated by the CAA.
I would like to meet the bloke and make up my own mind but from what I have read, at this moment I would say he hasn't a leg to stand on
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For the record: I would rather be sitting with my family behind PM in the cockpit than some numpty who was 'only following orders' and as somebody so elloquently put it - steered the aircraft towards a theoretical cliff face.
Furthermore remember that a civil aircraft does not have a navigator and any ejection system!
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Breaking rules
Hellsbrink,
As I made clear some time ago I was officially invited to break FTL RULES all the time by my 'cowboy' Lo Co carrier. I haven't got time now to spell out all of the nuances but most of the time it was very much for the carriers benefit and yes, I (not the carrier) would have been guilty as charged in the event of an incident and subsequent paperwork trawl, 'in depth enquiry' or whatever you call it.
Isn't it a "double bind" when you are b*****ed both ways?
Frequent SLF,
What made you think there was an SOP for flying into a cliff? Many is the time we have queeried instructions and maybe done the opposite of what we had been invited to do. Are you a pilot or SLF? as this may be beyond you.
I agree; why is this still in Rumours and News? and not in some "Here we go again forum"?
DB
As I made clear some time ago I was officially invited to break FTL RULES all the time by my 'cowboy' Lo Co carrier. I haven't got time now to spell out all of the nuances but most of the time it was very much for the carriers benefit and yes, I (not the carrier) would have been guilty as charged in the event of an incident and subsequent paperwork trawl, 'in depth enquiry' or whatever you call it.
Isn't it a "double bind" when you are b*****ed both ways?
Frequent SLF,
What made you think there was an SOP for flying into a cliff? Many is the time we have queeried instructions and maybe done the opposite of what we had been invited to do. Are you a pilot or SLF? as this may be beyond you.
I agree; why is this still in Rumours and News? and not in some "Here we go again forum"?
DB
Controversial, moi?
And you would still have been given the three points necessary to ban you. After all, you are allowed "indicated speed +/-10%"....
So your indicated 80 could actually be 84+ due to the way the speedo is set up.
Please try harder.