Pablo Mason (Spelled M.A.S.O.N) Tribunal
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'in days of yore the events described by BEagle would have been exactly the right approach'.
In 'days of yore' the majority of British males would have fully understood and accepted, having probably experienced at first hand, a bollocking as exemplified by Beagle. Regretably, IMHO, there are now two generations of British males, weaned in the insidious, state sponsored culture of living life 'by the book', 'that's the procedure' and 'the computer says' with little or no experience of the Sevice's methods and that goes all the way to the top of all the UK's political parties.
In 'days of yore' the majority of British males would have fully understood and accepted, having probably experienced at first hand, a bollocking as exemplified by Beagle. Regretably, IMHO, there are now two generations of British males, weaned in the insidious, state sponsored culture of living life 'by the book', 'that's the procedure' and 'the computer says' with little or no experience of the Sevice's methods and that goes all the way to the top of all the UK's political parties.
Thread Starter
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Controversial, moi?
His dudeness
I didn't reply earlier for fear of being accused of diverting this thread.
For the record I made the effort to go and discuss the incident with my chief pilot. What do you think he did? What would you do?
Free speech hasn't been outlawed yet. So yes he is still with the company until such time as free speech is made a dismissable offence. And of course it is very easy for non-whites to cry 'racism'.
The rest of your post is risible.
I didn't reply earlier for fear of being accused of diverting this thread.
For the record I made the effort to go and discuss the incident with my chief pilot. What do you think he did? What would you do?
Free speech hasn't been outlawed yet. So yes he is still with the company until such time as free speech is made a dismissable offence. And of course it is very easy for non-whites to cry 'racism'.
The rest of your post is risible.
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Risible? Of course it is.
Good that you reported it. Bad it has had no consequences. Iīd kick his ass out, no matter the costs.
So your chiefpilot couldnīt do anything because free speech is not an offence. Right.
So if I answer, at the security check: "I have a bomb in there and Osama bin Laden packed my bags, why?" I get away with it? Donīt think so.
Rule 1: no jokes/stupid talk at the security checks
Rule 2: terrorist approval on F/D is okay.
Rule 3: open cockpitdoor on pvt charter is no-no.
One can learn a lot on pprune.
But you`re right Iīm drifting. Sorry for that.
Good that you reported it. Bad it has had no consequences. Iīd kick his ass out, no matter the costs.
So your chiefpilot couldnīt do anything because free speech is not an offence. Right.
So if I answer, at the security check: "I have a bomb in there and Osama bin Laden packed my bags, why?" I get away with it? Donīt think so.
Rule 1: no jokes/stupid talk at the security checks
Rule 2: terrorist approval on F/D is okay.
Rule 3: open cockpitdoor on pvt charter is no-no.
One can learn a lot on pprune.
But you`re right Iīm drifting. Sorry for that.
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Confession - I broke the rules....
Yesterday, I deliberately and knowingly drove at 90 mph on the M4, I normally cruise at around 80 mph, but I was in a bit of a hurry and just joined in with many other cars doing the same speed.
I fully expected to get nicked but strangely 'got away with it' (I hope) and obediently drove through the 50 mph roadworks restriction at ....51 mph.
I know it's wrong and I broke the rules - but do any of those who slavishly follow the book rules or who have ever exceeded the 70 mph national speed limit have a view?
And if the situation is different - how & why?
Yours easily confused,
DB
(apologies for any thread drift....)
I fully expected to get nicked but strangely 'got away with it' (I hope) and obediently drove through the 50 mph roadworks restriction at ....51 mph.
I know it's wrong and I broke the rules - but do any of those who slavishly follow the book rules or who have ever exceeded the 70 mph national speed limit have a view?
And if the situation is different - how & why?
Yours easily confused,
DB
(apologies for any thread drift....)
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Dream Buster
If you had been caught speeding would you have said that it was normal/the rules didn't apply to you/someone else should take the blame too/the rules are stuid/etc or would you have held your hands up and accepted the punishment, especially knowing that when the police checked things they would see you had a previous history of driving offences?
Can you see the similarities now?
Now be good and go sit down and think about what you said. PM broke regulations repeatedly, was caught repeatedly, was sacked and then tried to say "not my fault, guv".
Oh, how many other Flight Crew flying for UK/US carriers DELIBERATELY break the regulations on allowing passengers into the cockpit in flight, as that is what you are inferring by your "just joined in with many other cars doing the same speed" bit. Are you inferring this is common practice and only one man was singled out for it, and is therefore innocent?
Can you see the similarities now?
Now be good and go sit down and think about what you said. PM broke regulations repeatedly, was caught repeatedly, was sacked and then tried to say "not my fault, guv".
Oh, how many other Flight Crew flying for UK/US carriers DELIBERATELY break the regulations on allowing passengers into the cockpit in flight, as that is what you are inferring by your "just joined in with many other cars doing the same speed" bit. Are you inferring this is common practice and only one man was singled out for it, and is therefore innocent?
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Dream Buster.
Can I ask if you would have deliberately driven at 90mph if you already had 9 points on your licence? Honest answer please.
If it's a "no" then I would assume that you are a sensible character who is aware of his predicament. If it's a "yes", then that is your choice but you must be prepared to face the consequences if caught.
Pablo had racked up the equivalent of 9 points at MYT. Instead of driving at 70, he went out and put his foot down again. His choice was wrong and he got caught.
Can I ask if you would have deliberately driven at 90mph if you already had 9 points on your licence? Honest answer please.
If it's a "no" then I would assume that you are a sensible character who is aware of his predicament. If it's a "yes", then that is your choice but you must be prepared to face the consequences if caught.
Pablo had racked up the equivalent of 9 points at MYT. Instead of driving at 70, he went out and put his foot down again. His choice was wrong and he got caught.
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Originally Posted by Hellsrbrink
Now be good and go sit down and think about what you said. PM broke regulations repeatedly, was caught repeatedly, was sacked and then tried to say "not my fault, guv".
If Mason accepted complete responsibility for what he did; used his judgement and initiative and decided that there was no risk to the safe operation of the aircraft, then he has a case.
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Originally Posted by Hellsbrink
Oh, how many other Flight Crew flying for UK/US carriers DELIBERATELY break the regulations on allowing passengers into the cockpit in flight, as that is what you are inferring by your "just joined in with many other cars doing the same speed" bit. Are you inferring this is common practice and only one man was singled out for it, and is therefore innocent?
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If Mason accepted complete responsibility for what he did; used his judgement and initiative and decided that there was no risk to the safe operation of the aircraft, then he has a case.
That's like saying "I was doing 120mph in a 70 zone but I felt it was safe so the speed limit doesn't apply". You know you'll never get off with that excuse, same as PM would never have been able to bulsh his way out of the situation he put himself in.
Did he say it wasn't his fault, or did he accept complete responsibility for his actions, and decide to breach the rules anyway? The distinction is important.
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Plus, there is a difference between a private car driver going at 80, and a public coach driver going at 80. Which is why the "slow" lanes of motorways are populated with coaches and lorries. Their livelihood depends on them sticking to the rules on speeding, plus they are responsible for more than their own life when driving. So they don't speed. I am sure an HGV or coach driver wouldn't be the best around Silverstone, but boring, defensive driving = safe driving
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Originally Posted by Hellsbrink
He decided to breach the rules on at least 3 separate occasions, he decided to have Robbie Savage up front and then tried to pass some of the blame onto his F/O, he decided to try and get off with a technicality, he said safety wasn't compromised "so damn the rules, I do what I want" (my words, not his afaik). 100% his own fault, blame and responsibility no matter how you look at it.
The analogy with motoring doesn't really work - speeding is by definition unsafe. To suggest that Mason's transgression really had anything to do with flight safety - as opposed to arbitrary rules - is a difficult sell for me.
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Originally Posted by Gxer
It's impossible for an intelligent mind to reach that conclusion, yet I cannot discern any intended irony...
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JamesT et al
How many times does it have to be said. He broke the rules on numerous occasions, was disciplined on each and eventually wrote his own dismissal. It is not a question of punishment fitting the crime but just reality fitting Pablo.
I have flown with him and work in the same company as him. He knew he was on thin ice at 2 warnings. Enough said.
If you work for any company, aviation related OR NOT. Read your disciplinary procedure. It will be clearly laid out what the procedure is. If you break it, then expect to be asked not to come in on monday. Period.
It has SOD all to do with letting someone on the flight deck and everything to do with following company policy and caa legalities. If you cannot follow that then expect a p45.
Does NOBODY on these forums read the early posts on long threads anymore. I posted ages ago about Pablo. Great in a bar, nightmare to fly with and on his last warning. He KNEW what he was doing but as always thought himself untouchable. Even the RAF have rules, and he managed to break quite a few of those.
If that means that the people flying you are all grey and dull, then so be it. Those of us behind our locked door know different, and to be quite frank,are thankful for the gainful employment and excellent quality of life that we enjoy!!!!!!
How many times does it have to be said. He broke the rules on numerous occasions, was disciplined on each and eventually wrote his own dismissal. It is not a question of punishment fitting the crime but just reality fitting Pablo.
I have flown with him and work in the same company as him. He knew he was on thin ice at 2 warnings. Enough said.
If you work for any company, aviation related OR NOT. Read your disciplinary procedure. It will be clearly laid out what the procedure is. If you break it, then expect to be asked not to come in on monday. Period.
It has SOD all to do with letting someone on the flight deck and everything to do with following company policy and caa legalities. If you cannot follow that then expect a p45.
Does NOBODY on these forums read the early posts on long threads anymore. I posted ages ago about Pablo. Great in a bar, nightmare to fly with and on his last warning. He KNEW what he was doing but as always thought himself untouchable. Even the RAF have rules, and he managed to break quite a few of those.
If that means that the people flying you are all grey and dull, then so be it. Those of us behind our locked door know different, and to be quite frank,are thankful for the gainful employment and excellent quality of life that we enjoy!!!!!!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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and how they can be challenged
This was not the case with Mason and the punishment was determined before he committed the crime, he was on a final warning so 'punishment fitting the crime is irrelevant', it was simply a case of 'deliberately break yet another rule/legal requirement and you are OUT'.
Mason has shown no remorse whatsoever, his comment was that he had lost to a very capable barrister, a situation of his own choosing.
(Sorry about the heavy type, finger trouble!).
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Parabellum
Ah, sense at last. These threads are the sole reason I rarely look on Pprune these days. It is depressing that a forum that used to offer guidance and information to a professional sector has been reduced to something akin to the 'Sun' newspaper.
I have nothing against aviation enthusiasts but the main title of the website is supposed to say it all. 'Professional Pilots Rumour Network', not Sim flyers network or spotters website. How it has changed since I first started using it 11 years ago.
Ah, sense at last. These threads are the sole reason I rarely look on Pprune these days. It is depressing that a forum that used to offer guidance and information to a professional sector has been reduced to something akin to the 'Sun' newspaper.
I have nothing against aviation enthusiasts but the main title of the website is supposed to say it all. 'Professional Pilots Rumour Network', not Sim flyers network or spotters website. How it has changed since I first started using it 11 years ago.
The "Pablo was hard done by" set appears to think the the locked cockpit door policy is not based upon a valid safety case. That the Captain should have full authority to allow any person they see fit onto the flight deck.
I flew airliners in Aus. for seven years before coming to the UK, with an open flight deck door policy for that time. On three and four day trips it was common (having sat next to the other guy for so many days, it was usually a relief) to invite passengers onto the flight deck.
In that time, I have had passengers bump overhead panel switches (manoeuvring for photos), had a child placed by his father onto the centre panel and had a child grab TWO fire handles at the same time.
In the wider sense, deadheading crew, known to the flight crew and allowed on the flight deck have attempted murder/suicide, a Kenyan passenger burst through an unlocked cockpit door and attacked the crew, and numerous highjackings such as the four aircraft on Sep 11 have occurred.
To hold the opinion that
is nonsense. The rule is a serious one, and a serious attempt to improve flight safety. Don't forget that.
I flew airliners in Aus. for seven years before coming to the UK, with an open flight deck door policy for that time. On three and four day trips it was common (having sat next to the other guy for so many days, it was usually a relief) to invite passengers onto the flight deck.
In that time, I have had passengers bump overhead panel switches (manoeuvring for photos), had a child placed by his father onto the centre panel and had a child grab TWO fire handles at the same time.
In the wider sense, deadheading crew, known to the flight crew and allowed on the flight deck have attempted murder/suicide, a Kenyan passenger burst through an unlocked cockpit door and attacked the crew, and numerous highjackings such as the four aircraft on Sep 11 have occurred.
To hold the opinion that
- Non-technical people on the flight deck does not increase risk, and
- the Captain can or will correctly asses every visitor
is nonsense. The rule is a serious one, and a serious attempt to improve flight safety. Don't forget that.
Last edited by Checkboard; 24th Mar 2009 at 15:15.
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I don't think it has been mentioned, but PM was on the radio after the tribunal.
He said the tribunal had been conducted fairly and he was happy with the outcome. He thanked his barrister (so he didn;'t represent himself), I think he thanked to opposing team too.
All in all, he came across as very reasonable and personal plaintiff who having tried was content with the outcome. A rarity these days.
He said the tribunal had been conducted fairly and he was happy with the outcome. He thanked his barrister (so he didn;'t represent himself), I think he thanked to opposing team too.
All in all, he came across as very reasonable and personal plaintiff who having tried was content with the outcome. A rarity these days.
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Fair cop
Hi All,
If I had got stopped by the police doing 90 mph I would have accepted the fine with good grace, a fair cop!
If I had 9 points on my licence (I haven't got any - sorry). I would have gone at 80 mph maximum - like every body else.
When my sister was 50 in 2003 I had a cunn ing scheme of taking my sister (she is not a terrorist) on a jump seat ride on an empty sector for her 50th birthday as captain.
Do you know what, I didn't even ask - as I knew what the answer would be.
I didn't want to give the muppet(tes) the pleasure of saying......'Are you mad captain? No!'
It's all MAD! Pick and mix rules....I feel a sneeking, slight sympathy for PM, now.
He just got caught. I didn't and wasn't either!
DB
If I had got stopped by the police doing 90 mph I would have accepted the fine with good grace, a fair cop!
If I had 9 points on my licence (I haven't got any - sorry). I would have gone at 80 mph maximum - like every body else.
When my sister was 50 in 2003 I had a cunn ing scheme of taking my sister (she is not a terrorist) on a jump seat ride on an empty sector for her 50th birthday as captain.
Do you know what, I didn't even ask - as I knew what the answer would be.
I didn't want to give the muppet(tes) the pleasure of saying......'Are you mad captain? No!'
It's all MAD! Pick and mix rules....I feel a sneeking, slight sympathy for PM, now.
He just got caught. I didn't and wasn't either!
DB