UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
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In any event, I am sorry for turning this into a slugfest.
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Why can't the KBOS dispatch desk issue three TO clearances routinely (Tall, short, or no ship) so the front office can choose the appropriate one?
RIX
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Performance data can not be ignored. SEA has takeoff performance from 2 parallel runways the same length but climb data to the north is different for each runway. We refused a takeoff from one runway because we were not legal even though it was the same length. Tower questioned our refusal and we just told them we were legal from one but not the other. We are just following the rules.
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Dani Dani Dani boy
...Bring it on, guys. I can handle it.
I just tell you: Your E/O path is calculated for IFR conditions. If you see that there is an obstacle, if you know that it's not in your way and if you know that you can do a turn of 1 or 2 degrees even single engine (well at least I can do it, I'm not sure about the grey-haired ones), then you certainly can assume that you can make it.
That's what I mean with common sense.
Reflect yourself. Even you (when you still where young) could do such "calculation". And you remember that your pilot's everyday life consists constantly of such assumptions. If you couldn't do that, you couldn't fly anymore. Or are you also one of such guys who declines a visual approach (there could be an obstacle somewhere!!) or don't allow your collegues to make a visual separation 5NM behind you through your level (he could suddenly stop in the air!!!!)? I'm so glad that I don't have to share my cockpit with you
Dani...
My dear Dani:
I have the impression you are a young man. There is nothing you can do to avoid it. However, you should listen to the universe.
Assumptions do not count in the court of law, nor when life of people are in your hands.
Common sense is the last sense you should trust, if at all.
To the content of your second paragraph much can be said or with good CRM discuss. (One thing I need to mention though,I would be glad to share a flight with you, I really would.)
Last but not least, nothing is constant in life, only change is.
Your hair will become gray some day into the future...
And dont forget grave yards are full of brave and smart pilots.
Respectfully submitted,
The old bold man. ( Luckily no gray hair...)
I just tell you: Your E/O path is calculated for IFR conditions. If you see that there is an obstacle, if you know that it's not in your way and if you know that you can do a turn of 1 or 2 degrees even single engine (well at least I can do it, I'm not sure about the grey-haired ones), then you certainly can assume that you can make it.
That's what I mean with common sense.
Reflect yourself. Even you (when you still where young) could do such "calculation". And you remember that your pilot's everyday life consists constantly of such assumptions. If you couldn't do that, you couldn't fly anymore. Or are you also one of such guys who declines a visual approach (there could be an obstacle somewhere!!) or don't allow your collegues to make a visual separation 5NM behind you through your level (he could suddenly stop in the air!!!!)? I'm so glad that I don't have to share my cockpit with you
Dani...
My dear Dani:
I have the impression you are a young man. There is nothing you can do to avoid it. However, you should listen to the universe.
Assumptions do not count in the court of law, nor when life of people are in your hands.
Common sense is the last sense you should trust, if at all.
To the content of your second paragraph much can be said or with good CRM discuss. (One thing I need to mention though,I would be glad to share a flight with you, I really would.)
Last but not least, nothing is constant in life, only change is.
Your hair will become gray some day into the future...
And dont forget grave yards are full of brave and smart pilots.
Respectfully submitted,
The old bold man. ( Luckily no gray hair...)
Last edited by VONKLUFFEN; 23rd Feb 2009 at 07:31.
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... and for the UA pilot. Congrats for crying wolf. You DID the RIGHT thing.
It is WHAT is wright not WHO is wright.
Think this case is closed. Lets move on.
It is WHAT is wright not WHO is wright.
Think this case is closed. Lets move on.
Last edited by VONKLUFFEN; 23rd Feb 2009 at 07:32.
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Dani,
How wide is your takeoff cone? What allowances are you making for wind? What is the climb gradient of your aircraft on 1 engine? Are these questions that you answer before every takeoff?
Mutt
How wide is your takeoff cone? What allowances are you making for wind? What is the climb gradient of your aircraft on 1 engine? Are these questions that you answer before every takeoff?
Mutt
FX Guru
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DingerX - Thanks for the gen.
Nice to know that the majority of people surmised it was a job well done by all.
Bet that hour is factored into the timetable anyway!
Nice to know that the majority of people surmised it was a job well done by all.
Bet that hour is factored into the timetable anyway!
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Barit - They may well do it.
Like Old Smokey, we have our normal performance chart, and a table of corrections for Mast below xxx, Mast between xxx and yyy, and Mast upto zzz.
Again as he points out, this is all good and well as long as you aren't performance limited anyway and can't take off with the penalties. That is when you need to know the exact height of the ship. Singapore does it extremely well, and NOTAM the height of the ship as well as the crossing times. ATC also tell you when it is passing through.
News Shooter - Its a perfectly reasonable question for which I hope you've managed to descern a reasonable answer. Unfortuantely despite this being a Professional Pilots website, many of the more vocal people here don't have a clue what they are talking about, having never been a professional pilot (or qualified person... some of the replies may have been from someone who isn't a pilot but is a highly qualified performance engineer) yet claiming they know it all! You will find different pilots with different opinions and that is fine too... but you'll also hear some complete garbage!
One common theme though. All the professionals have said that for WHATEVER reason, the UAL captain wasn't certain, and so delayed his takeoff until he was completely sure that he was legal and safe. Sure, he may have misunderstood the situation, and maybe the delay could have been avoided with better communication. But he wasn't sure and so he took the PROFESSIONAL (and only correct) decision to wait until he was certain and the issue resolved.
Like Old Smokey, we have our normal performance chart, and a table of corrections for Mast below xxx, Mast between xxx and yyy, and Mast upto zzz.
Again as he points out, this is all good and well as long as you aren't performance limited anyway and can't take off with the penalties. That is when you need to know the exact height of the ship. Singapore does it extremely well, and NOTAM the height of the ship as well as the crossing times. ATC also tell you when it is passing through.
News Shooter - Its a perfectly reasonable question for which I hope you've managed to descern a reasonable answer. Unfortuantely despite this being a Professional Pilots website, many of the more vocal people here don't have a clue what they are talking about, having never been a professional pilot (or qualified person... some of the replies may have been from someone who isn't a pilot but is a highly qualified performance engineer) yet claiming they know it all! You will find different pilots with different opinions and that is fine too... but you'll also hear some complete garbage!
One common theme though. All the professionals have said that for WHATEVER reason, the UAL captain wasn't certain, and so delayed his takeoff until he was completely sure that he was legal and safe. Sure, he may have misunderstood the situation, and maybe the delay could have been avoided with better communication. But he wasn't sure and so he took the PROFESSIONAL (and only correct) decision to wait until he was certain and the issue resolved.
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I used to enjoy this board when it was a Professional Pilots Forum.
Now its turned into a reggie spotter-Microsoft pilot expert - I have a controversial opinion even though I don't know what I am talking about board.
The guy made a decision based on his companys procedures and the facts that only he knew at the time. That is why he is Captain of his aircraft. The professionals here know that we don't do "probably" or "should be ok".
All the professional pilots here know that.
Now - if anyone has a knowledgeable/ sensible/ useful comment to make AND they are a professional pilot then please go ahead. Everyone else, feel free to read, but please don't bother posting. This will save those of us for whom this board was set up a lot of time. Thanks.
Now its turned into a reggie spotter-Microsoft pilot expert - I have a controversial opinion even though I don't know what I am talking about board.
The guy made a decision based on his companys procedures and the facts that only he knew at the time. That is why he is Captain of his aircraft. The professionals here know that we don't do "probably" or "should be ok".
All the professional pilots here know that.
Now - if anyone has a knowledgeable/ sensible/ useful comment to make AND they are a professional pilot then please go ahead. Everyone else, feel free to read, but please don't bother posting. This will save those of us for whom this board was set up a lot of time. Thanks.
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As I said, I don't know any of the facts. I just mentioned a certain behaviour I often observe in certain situation. It happens more often in traditional bigger airlines that - at the same time - have a higher cost base at statistically no significantly better safety margin. You all know that I'm not refering to hair colours but to state of minds.
Mutt, take off cones, wind considerations, obstacle limitations etc. - all applies for an IFR departure. Except if it's a visual departure. I seriously doubt that his runway table was the later. Higher margins apply for uncertainty of navigation in clouds.
I agree that you shouldn't (always) follow the herd but if all great aviators that day took off except him, I'm not sure... He was correct and everybody else was endangering their flight? Pretty heavy allegation to all these pilots that day!
Dani
age: 44
experience: 10 000 airline hours
7000 as airline CMD
type ratings similar to the UA pilots
some grey hairs at the temples
Mutt, take off cones, wind considerations, obstacle limitations etc. - all applies for an IFR departure. Except if it's a visual departure. I seriously doubt that his runway table was the later. Higher margins apply for uncertainty of navigation in clouds.
I agree that you shouldn't (always) follow the herd but if all great aviators that day took off except him, I'm not sure... He was correct and everybody else was endangering their flight? Pretty heavy allegation to all these pilots that day!
Dani
age: 44
experience: 10 000 airline hours
7000 as airline CMD
type ratings similar to the UA pilots
some grey hairs at the temples
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The ship was reportedly at anchor. One of the characteristics of ships is that they are mobile. What if it decided to move. Under whose control are they?
If you put a moveable obstruction at various points in the net takeoff flight path you have a large number of scenarios to think of.
If you just kick the tyres and light the fires and blast off, if anything goes wrong, the FAA, victims lawyers, and last but not least Pprune spotters, will all have the benefit of hindsight as they drag your decision over the coals.
If you put a moveable obstruction at various points in the net takeoff flight path you have a large number of scenarios to think of.
If you just kick the tyres and light the fires and blast off, if anything goes wrong, the FAA, victims lawyers, and last but not least Pprune spotters, will all have the benefit of hindsight as they drag your decision over the coals.
Mutt, take off cones, wind considerations, obstacle limitations etc. - all applies for an IFR departure. Except if it's a visual departure.
I seriously doubt that his runway table was the later. Higher margins apply for uncertainty of navigation in clouds.
How does being visual allow you to improve your OEI climb gradient in the first couple of segments?
I agree that you shouldn't (always) follow the herd but if all great aviators that day took off except him, I'm not sure... He was correct and everybody else was endangering their flight? Pretty heavy allegation to all these pilots that day!
Personally, I wouldn't assume anything about the performance capability of an aircraft other than the one I was sitting in, even if it were the same type. I'd presume that they'd done their sums and were either happy or not. Their decision...
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FullWing, full of brandy?
So you want to tell me that you don't know that a visual departure is not the same as an IFR departure (performancewise)? Are you serious??? God bless us, and you have 10 000 hours?
Dani
So you want to tell me that you don't know that a visual departure is not the same as an IFR departure (performancewise)? Are you serious??? God bless us, and you have 10 000 hours?
Dani
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FullWing, full of brandy?
So you want to tell me that you don't know that a visual departure is not the same as an IFR departure (performancewise)? Are you serious??? God bless us, and you have 10 000 hours?
So you want to tell me that you don't know that a visual departure is not the same as an IFR departure (performancewise)? Are you serious??? God bless us, and you have 10 000 hours?
Can you please define a visual departure in an IFR environment ??
What on Earth are you on about ?
So you want to tell me that you don't know that a visual departure is not the same as an IFR departure (performancewise)?
What do you do when you're flying - "it's a nice day, let's put on another 30T over RTOW"? I'm sure you don't. How is looking outside the cockpit going to help you during the 1st & 2nd segment climb? As asked before, how is being 'visual' improving terrain clearance when you're still inside the airfield boundary?
OK, if you are well clear of the ground in clear vis. you can manoeuvre to avoid obstacles and make your way back into the circuit. Bear in mind that 'terrain constrained' airfields often require quite precise navigation and speed control to avoid the cumulo-granitus. Places like Bogota and San Jose come to mind. If you set off down an unknown valley after an engine failure because it looks good, don't blame the performance engineers when you can't get out of the other end.
As soon as you take matters into your own hands and deviate from laid-down performance criteria, you are on your own. I agree in the obvious cases like completely flat terrain or taking off with a thousand miles of sea between you and the nearest obstruction that you can make some of it up as you go along. Anywhere else I would exercise extreme caution as the difference between an AEO and OEI departure can be like night and day - bearing in mind that most, if not all our experience has been AEO...