Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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Dani,
Where to Begin...
"So enlighten me:
Does your (A)OM say that Bombardier recommends using rudder during a stall?"
I have more than 6000 hrs on Saab 2000, the most powerful and fastest turboprop in the world.
Still better performance than a Q400. I hate to show off but you started."
Where to Begin...
"So enlighten me:
Does your (A)OM say that Bombardier recommends using rudder during a stall?"
Dunno, I fly heavies now, had to turn my manual back in. If I had to guess, I'd say Bombardier assumes pilots will maintain coordinated flight unless landing in a crosswind.
"Of course you need rudder for power changes, and for engine failures.I have more than 6000 hrs on Saab 2000, the most powerful and fastest turboprop in the world.
Still better performance than a Q400. I hate to show off but you started."No, you were the one with the snide remark about how we talk about airliners here... Oh, and check out the TU-114 for power, or the Avanti for speed. Not sure how they stack up against the SAAB 2000
"You simply try to belittle my argument, you don't argue to find the truth. Which is: Don't use rudder for stall recovery."I don't use the rudder for stall recovery. But, I do use the rudder to maintain coordinated flight during a stall recovery.
I think our little discussion has gone long enough. I'll do some reading, but you'd best do some too...
Q.
Q.
Last edited by q100; 15th May 2009 at 03:28.
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"...The stick pusher pushes the control column forward to decrease pitch, increase airspeed and get the airplane out of a stall (designed actually for higher altitude scenarios). ..."
Yes. Designed for higher altitude scenarios, practiced at high altitudes, ... but the wing doesn't have eyes to see how close the ground is and stall recovery is the same: lower the nose and add power and do it but quick! If the ground is inconveniently close, you still lower the nose and add power. It may take some real determination to do it but there really is no other choice aerodynamically. If you raise the nose you won't recover from the stall you will only make it worse.
Although this was a difficult altitude, my understanding is that recovery was possible, even probable. What went wrong is that the pilot raised the nose, the co-pilot changed the flap setting (albeit not by very much, it seems) and although power seems to have been added it seems to have been insufficient and unusual attitudes may have eroded air speed simply too far for power to have been sufficient when the high angle of attack kept the wings stalled.
Systemic problems with the industry that put poorly trained or perhaps even untrained (in certain critical maneuvers) personnel in the cockpit and put them in that cockpit while utterly exhausted are bad enough. Individual problems that make a pilot want to raise the nose in a stall are a final wrinkle to the puzzle that is most perplexing.
It may indeed have been a fear of a tail-stall due to "remembrance of former aircraft" but I'm not even certain that unusual tail-stall was really part of a prior or then-current mindset. I guess we will never know about that.
Yes. Designed for higher altitude scenarios, practiced at high altitudes, ... but the wing doesn't have eyes to see how close the ground is and stall recovery is the same: lower the nose and add power and do it but quick! If the ground is inconveniently close, you still lower the nose and add power. It may take some real determination to do it but there really is no other choice aerodynamically. If you raise the nose you won't recover from the stall you will only make it worse.
Although this was a difficult altitude, my understanding is that recovery was possible, even probable. What went wrong is that the pilot raised the nose, the co-pilot changed the flap setting (albeit not by very much, it seems) and although power seems to have been added it seems to have been insufficient and unusual attitudes may have eroded air speed simply too far for power to have been sufficient when the high angle of attack kept the wings stalled.
Systemic problems with the industry that put poorly trained or perhaps even untrained (in certain critical maneuvers) personnel in the cockpit and put them in that cockpit while utterly exhausted are bad enough. Individual problems that make a pilot want to raise the nose in a stall are a final wrinkle to the puzzle that is most perplexing.
It may indeed have been a fear of a tail-stall due to "remembrance of former aircraft" but I'm not even certain that unusual tail-stall was really part of a prior or then-current mindset. I guess we will never know about that.
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In defense of Captain Renslow's flying skills during the crisis, we need to look into his probable state of mind, and consider how brains work in cases of dire emergency. OK, flying is 99 99/100 percent boredom (hence any old chitchat and a coffee, one assumes just to stay awake but relaxed). The remaining 1/100 of 1 percent is sheer panic, when adrenaline kicks in, and the brain freezes up (which is why preceding a stall, there can be a voice accompanying the stick-shaker with the sharp command "Down! Down!", yes, to highly professional pilots in state of the art jets.)
At such times of instant brain panic, embedded instincts take over. Stalling? Push stick forward to gain airspeed! But am I low and slow with reduced lift because of ice? I can't see the wings! Not enough altitude, maybe. What do I do? Clean-up drag (raise flaps), add max power of course, and hope to get the hell out of it.
If anyone hopes to learn something about flying from this tragedy, (apart from thinking that "there but for the grace of God go I"), it's not about airmanship, it's bearing in mind how the brain works for everybody in times of panic. Training and discipline mean to never enter that state of mind, by calm preparedness ahead. It means to never risk getting to that place.
This was a cautionary tale. At least the guy who landed in the Hudson had a few minutes of cool thought ahead of time to make a decision. But one senses that there was no panic there.
At such times of instant brain panic, embedded instincts take over. Stalling? Push stick forward to gain airspeed! But am I low and slow with reduced lift because of ice? I can't see the wings! Not enough altitude, maybe. What do I do? Clean-up drag (raise flaps), add max power of course, and hope to get the hell out of it.
If anyone hopes to learn something about flying from this tragedy, (apart from thinking that "there but for the grace of God go I"), it's not about airmanship, it's bearing in mind how the brain works for everybody in times of panic. Training and discipline mean to never enter that state of mind, by calm preparedness ahead. It means to never risk getting to that place.
This was a cautionary tale. At least the guy who landed in the Hudson had a few minutes of cool thought ahead of time to make a decision. But one senses that there was no panic there.
Nope. Stick pusher is designed for any altitude.
Recovery was possible from stall warning - before the actual stall . Once the aeroplane was stalled it became largely unlikely.
Recovery was possible from stall warning - before the actual stall . Once the aeroplane was stalled it became largely unlikely.
Dani,
You say:
"so enlighten me - does your (A)om say that Bombardier recommends using rudder during a stall"
If you have flown a Q400 you will no doubt be familiar with this paragraph from the AOM :
"Once ready to accomplish the stall - reduce power slowly to flight idle - as the aeroplane decelerates towards the stall the wing is held level by use of roll control, heading is maintained by use of the rudder..."
In your previous post you categorically stated that rudder should never be touched near a stall - it would appear that the manufacturer, presumably backed up by its own flight test department, thinks differently.
If you haven't flown a Q400 then that's fair enough, you won't be aware of it, anymore than I know what it says in the flight manual or AOM for a Saab.
Clandestino also says that teaching pilots to recover from a full blown stall in a pusher equipped aircraft is unproductive - but I think that this accident proves otherwise.
It is a straight wing aeroplane, not a swept wing jet. If it stalls, rudder is used to prevent further yaw and aileron to raise the wing once you have increased the airspeed/lowered the angle of atttack and unstalled the wing. If it has a more or less powerful rudder you use a smaller or greater rudder input, but the principle remains the same.
You say:
"so enlighten me - does your (A)om say that Bombardier recommends using rudder during a stall"
If you have flown a Q400 you will no doubt be familiar with this paragraph from the AOM :
"Once ready to accomplish the stall - reduce power slowly to flight idle - as the aeroplane decelerates towards the stall the wing is held level by use of roll control, heading is maintained by use of the rudder..."
In your previous post you categorically stated that rudder should never be touched near a stall - it would appear that the manufacturer, presumably backed up by its own flight test department, thinks differently.
If you haven't flown a Q400 then that's fair enough, you won't be aware of it, anymore than I know what it says in the flight manual or AOM for a Saab.
Clandestino also says that teaching pilots to recover from a full blown stall in a pusher equipped aircraft is unproductive - but I think that this accident proves otherwise.
It is a straight wing aeroplane, not a swept wing jet. If it stalls, rudder is used to prevent further yaw and aileron to raise the wing once you have increased the airspeed/lowered the angle of atttack and unstalled the wing. If it has a more or less powerful rudder you use a smaller or greater rudder input, but the principle remains the same.
Errrr.... Dani, it's to prevent it from misfiring and burying you in front of the threshold. Idea is that above 1000AGL, you'll have the time to counteract the faulty pusher, not that deep stall is impossible below 1000.
Anyway B.P. Davies' book has it all neatly explained. Pages 111 and 130 if you have third edition.
EDIT: Q400 is not a swept-wing jet but its wings are highly loaded and its tail sits atop the vertical stabilizer. If you stall it, you're half dead.
Anyway B.P. Davies' book has it all neatly explained. Pages 111 and 130 if you have third edition.
EDIT: Q400 is not a swept-wing jet but its wings are highly loaded and its tail sits atop the vertical stabilizer. If you stall it, you're half dead.
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OK,HOLD IT...somebody just said stick pushers were usually disabled below 1000'
I"ve flown stick pusher equipped planes and that is not the case.
There was a higher likelyhood of someone surviving this crash if the pilot had just let go of the stick than what he did (pull back) and what the copilot did (retractflaps and distract the captain with gear up)
During the dawn of flying...it took great courage to push forward on the stick to recover....but now we know it is the only way out...
Imagine this plane recovering inches above the ground and slamming into it (the ground) not stalled at 100 knots. Woe be to whomsoever is in the way, but someone would have lived.
I"ve flown stick pusher equipped planes and that is not the case.
There was a higher likelyhood of someone surviving this crash if the pilot had just let go of the stick than what he did (pull back) and what the copilot did (retractflaps and distract the captain with gear up)
During the dawn of flying...it took great courage to push forward on the stick to recover....but now we know it is the only way out...
Imagine this plane recovering inches above the ground and slamming into it (the ground) not stalled at 100 knots. Woe be to whomsoever is in the way, but someone would have lived.
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Growing disrespect for the arrrogance in this thread
Firstly with respect to two plilots who have died (and to all who have died and those living who are suffering as a result of this terrible accident).
I ask all pilots who are making judgement calls here (a lot of you are I know). When was the last time you made a Category A mistake that YOU KNOW YOU GOT AWAY WITH.
I'd put money on it that there is not one man or woman amongst you that, as much as you might deny it, have not made mistakes,
Let's be a little humble and learn.
I ask all pilots who are making judgement calls here (a lot of you are I know). When was the last time you made a Category A mistake that YOU KNOW YOU GOT AWAY WITH.
I'd put money on it that there is not one man or woman amongst you that, as much as you might deny it, have not made mistakes,
Let's be a little humble and learn.
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Let's be a little humble and learn.
There were two "qualified" pilots on the flight deck and no one utilized those qualifications and airmanship to keep the airplane flying. That is a shame to the profession. Hate to say it but they make us all look bad when they do something like that.
MB
If by Category A mistake, you mean an inadvertent stall at ANY altitude, not me. I have, in the USAF, investigated several and had a hand in removing the wings of a pilot that did, it is inexcusable to pay so little attention to such a basic fact of flying. Pay attention to airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee is a rule the Wright brothers taught us.
GF
If by Category A mistake, you mean an inadvertent stall at ANY altitude, not me. I have, in the USAF, investigated several and had a hand in removing the wings of a pilot that did, it is inexcusable to pay so little attention to such a basic fact of flying. Pay attention to airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee is a rule the Wright brothers taught us.
GF
made a Category A mistake that YOU KNOW YOU GOT AWAY WITH.
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Who knows what was going on in their minds.
I cannot for one moment countenance the thought that two pilots, inexperienced in icing conditions as they might have been, would have simply f@cked up like this.
Hard as it might be to admit, we may never know.
I (for what it is worth) believe he thought he was in a tail stall situation. He had one shot at the right answer. The laws of life and statistics called against him.
Hard as it might be to admit, we may never know.
I (for what it is worth) believe he thought he was in a tail stall situation. He had one shot at the right answer. The laws of life and statistics called against him.
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I cannot for one moment countenance the thought that two pilots, inexperienced in icing conditions as they might have been, would have simply f@cked up like this.
Hard as it might be to admit, we may never know.
Hard as it might be to admit, we may never know.
Sorry, but I've just about had enough of this ****. Pilots have become whores (seriously, who takes a job that pays $16000/yr??????) and have helped create this mess. And from where I sit, it will only get worse.
As pilots we should step back and take a good hard look at where we are headed, because from my position, it's not pretty.
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IF he feared tailplane stall!
Then why would he keep the plane on autopilot?
I feel badly talking about, pointing fingers at the dead. I feel very sorry for their families. But I feel sorrier (is that a word?) for the passengers and sorriest of all for the totally innocent man on the ground who died.
I just read that the mother of the copilot said she was an excellent pilot. I can think of 5 pilots that might be excellent. Lindbergh, Doolittle, Hoover, Yeager, and the brother's wright.(ok, 6)...
WE WHO KNOW THE SKY must be the harshest judges on our brothers and sisters.
THEY GOT SLOW...both pilots have Airspeed indicators and in icing conditions I would be doubly aware of air speed...ice's effect on the wings and possible pitot problems.
THEY DIDN'T REACT TO A STALL WARNING properly. IF the copilot saw the pilot doing the wrong thing SHE could have done something other than RETRACT the flaps.
THEY FOUGHT the only thing that could have saved them, the pusher. The copilot could have yelled...push forward or NOSE DOWN or kicked the wheel forward.
Fatigue, Poor training and EVALUATION, illness all played a factor.
BUT THE BIGGEST COMMON DENOMINATOR IS: IT was an FAA certified airliner, operated by an FAA certified Airline, with FAA approved Maintenance, and FAA approved Pilot training, and FAA certificated pilots.
FAA needs a change and randy babbit aint it.
I feel badly talking about, pointing fingers at the dead. I feel very sorry for their families. But I feel sorrier (is that a word?) for the passengers and sorriest of all for the totally innocent man on the ground who died.
I just read that the mother of the copilot said she was an excellent pilot. I can think of 5 pilots that might be excellent. Lindbergh, Doolittle, Hoover, Yeager, and the brother's wright.(ok, 6)...
WE WHO KNOW THE SKY must be the harshest judges on our brothers and sisters.
THEY GOT SLOW...both pilots have Airspeed indicators and in icing conditions I would be doubly aware of air speed...ice's effect on the wings and possible pitot problems.
THEY DIDN'T REACT TO A STALL WARNING properly. IF the copilot saw the pilot doing the wrong thing SHE could have done something other than RETRACT the flaps.
THEY FOUGHT the only thing that could have saved them, the pusher. The copilot could have yelled...push forward or NOSE DOWN or kicked the wheel forward.
Fatigue, Poor training and EVALUATION, illness all played a factor.
BUT THE BIGGEST COMMON DENOMINATOR IS: IT was an FAA certified airliner, operated by an FAA certified Airline, with FAA approved Maintenance, and FAA approved Pilot training, and FAA certificated pilots.
FAA needs a change and randy babbit aint it.
Person Of Interest
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Timbob...jump back into the cesspool trailer park YOU live in...
I don't know what "Sully" (by the way, do you know him enough to speak for him and say what he would have done early in his career?) but from what I've read about him he did his job...period...
It's not right to generalize RE:an airlines training and/or hiring procedures unless you have been there and know the facts and situations...
Obvivously, you are above all of this despite the fact that you are "King of Your Double-wide"
Your comment rates you as the "cess=pool" dweller...
And BTW, I live in a trailer-home and I'm proud of it...
So when does your episode air on "Springer"? I want to watch on a station near me...
I don't know what "Sully" (by the way, do you know him enough to speak for him and say what he would have done early in his career?) but from what I've read about him he did his job...period...
It's not right to generalize RE:an airlines training and/or hiring procedures unless you have been there and know the facts and situations...
Obvivously, you are above all of this despite the fact that you are "King of Your Double-wide"
Your comment rates you as the "cess=pool" dweller...
And BTW, I live in a trailer-home and I'm proud of it...
So when does your episode air on "Springer"? I want to watch on a station near me...
The Stepping Stone and Dues Payers Ecosystem
The holy grail is LHS on a big jet. That allows Stepping Stone operators to be very attractive to up and coming Dues Payers, even with burger flipper pay levels .
That pay level pretty much forces you to stay with mom and dad.
Nor does that kind of pay leave you enough money for a decent night's sleep after a long commute, nor for between duty days.
Looks to me that the Stepping Stone operators with long distance commute pilots need to provide accommodations.
That pay level pretty much forces you to stay with mom and dad.
Nor does that kind of pay leave you enough money for a decent night's sleep after a long commute, nor for between duty days.
Looks to me that the Stepping Stone operators with long distance commute pilots need to provide accommodations.
Person Of Interest
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RBF,
True, however when I started w/the commuters in the late 70's, we knew what we were getting into...crash pads next to your base...no life, "hot bunking" if needed, and crying out loud to scheduling for an extra day's flying just to build those hours...
BUT...we were flying C-402's and BE-99's with 8-15 pax, not multi million turboprops carrying upwards of 70 pax plus crew...still, standard airmanship applied...the Cessnas actually had an A/P, but we hand flew the 99 forever...
IMHO if you sign up for a job under stated conditions, be prepared to live up to those conditions or don't take the job...
True, however when I started w/the commuters in the late 70's, we knew what we were getting into...crash pads next to your base...no life, "hot bunking" if needed, and crying out loud to scheduling for an extra day's flying just to build those hours...
BUT...we were flying C-402's and BE-99's with 8-15 pax, not multi million turboprops carrying upwards of 70 pax plus crew...still, standard airmanship applied...the Cessnas actually had an A/P, but we hand flew the 99 forever...
IMHO if you sign up for a job under stated conditions, be prepared to live up to those conditions or don't take the job...
IMHO if you sign up for a job under stated conditions, be prepared to live up to those conditions or don't take the job...