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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

Old 26th Feb 2009, 08:04
  #841 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the out of trim status of the Q400

This is down to when you disconnect the autopilot as opposed to it always being out of trim on disconnect.
If you watch the aircraft in pitch on the glideslope next time you fly you'll see what I mean. As the aircraft is on the glideslope there is always movement in pitch to maintain the g/s as we change speed and configuration (obviously), invariably the out of trim status with the "jolt" comes when you disconnect the a/p as it is trimming for it's new state (even at Vref and configured) as it tries to remain on the g/s.
Before a/p disconnect wait until it is very stable then normally it won't happen. No aircraft will pin the g/s perfectly without a small or subtle "chase", even when fully configured and at Vref (but you already knew that )
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 11:28
  #842 (permalink)  
 
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Deano, you are only correct to a certain extent. I've flown enough sectors in the 400 to know how it flies, and I also know that like everything else on the fleet, it varies from airfarme to airframe. Some really are a complete dog.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 14:53
  #843 (permalink)  
 
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If there´s no punishment angle nor any demands being made, this lawsuit is not worth the paper it´s printed on
Sometimes lawsuits are brought to court in order to bring public attention to a cause. Perhaps this is the intent? Considering the "rampant cronyism and corruption, security lapses, and excessive “coziness” between the FAA and the airlines" extolled by the new "FAA Whistleblower Alliance", the reasons for failures to adequetely address recommendations by the NTSB are, IMHO, highly suspect.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 18:01
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Widow, it´s rather obvious that these people initiated this lawsuit in order to go as public as possible, but what chances do they have of actually winning said lawsuit if they can´t produce concrete proof that the FAA failed to act in a reasonable manner in specific cases/instances? The FAA will say they have issued those 100 icing related airworthiness directives and that does not sound like a complete failure to act, in my opinion - and probably in the court´s opinion as well.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 18:21
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My opinion of course, but it is not that the FAA completely failed to act, but that they did not act adequately.

Also, icing is not the only issue being addressed in the lawsuit.

These tidbits from another article:

"We know from experience that holding government accountable and putting the light of sunshine of public disclosure on these pending measures is perhaps the best — and in some cases the only — way to get the necessary changes that we need,"
The board also recommended that turboprop planes already in use when the testing requirements were in place should be retested and, if necessary, redesigned. But more than 12 years later, those recommendations haven't been implemented.
Dunham's lawsuit also seeks to force the FAA to take action on the NTSB's runway safety recommendations, such as installing "moving map" displays in all cockpits to alert pilots if another plane is attempting a takeoff from the wrong runway.
The FAA has undertaken several initiatives to boost runway safety, but a General Accounting Office report last fall rated the risk of runway collisions "still high."
DOT, FAA sued in bid to force air safety changes
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 13:31
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This California lawyer has been rather quick to already have filed a lawsuit on behalf of a client, against the airline(s) and Bombardier:

Plane should have been grounded, first Flight 3407 lawsuit claims : Home: The Buffalo News
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 13:53
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“The tale here starts with the fact they should have never been flying a turboprop airplane into these icing conditions, equipped with these antiquated de-icing boots,” he said. “This is 1920s, 1930s technology, which has not been brought up to date in any revolutionary way.”
So he wants every turboprop in the world, that is equipped with boots, to be grounded if icing conditions might be encountered? What an Idiot....

The pneumatic boots on the edge of the wings expand and cause the ice to shake off, but NASA tests have shown the boots cannot clear all the ice, and there are no boots on the tail.
The ice is broken off, or cracked, off. Where does he get the idea "shake off"?

The next problem, Goldman said, is that the Colgan Air pilots continued flying the plane on autopilot, even as they noticed the ice building up.

“What this does is, it deprives the pilots of the information of the degradation of the airplane’s performance,” Goldman said, “because the autopilot automatically adjusts for it. So they don’t know they are flying too close to the edge of a stall, at all.”
Autopilot is fine for all normal icicng. It should only be disconnected in SEVERE icing.

He said the 1972 crash of a British European Airways flight showed that, in certain conditions, when the flaps come down and the configuration of the wings change, the plane goes into an immediate stall, and the pilot is often unable to recover.
That was a tail stall. The Q400 is not prone to tail stall. The selection of flaps in this accdent probably had nothing to do with tail stall.

“When the nose was shoved down,” he said, “[the pilot] didn’t understand why and followed a gut reaction rather than a trained reaction and yanked the nose way up into a super stall, causing it to spin and crash.”
Speculation only, but may prove to be correct.
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 15:39
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Public Interest Lawsuits

dhc2widow - If you think this is about anything but lawyers fronting a "public interest group" group so the lawyers can position themselves at the trough you are going to be disappointed.
Schiavo, has no credibility with anyone but herself. She is an ambulance chaser. You might want to look at her "work" on the Mesa regional jet flame out.

If you want to be taken seriously in advancing aviation safety you need to be carefull about what you post.

20driver
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 16:45
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You might want to look at her "work" on the Mesa regional jet flame out
You mean the Pinnacle crash, don't you?

According to her website, Mary Schiavo - Aviation Expert Available to Media - Discuss Continental Flight 3407 Crash, Schiavo is quite the expert...
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 17:49
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I've tried some googling to understand your criticism of Schiavo. Can someone help me out?
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Old 27th Feb 2009, 18:37
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Scary Mary

I did mean the Pinnacle crash which was caused by pilots behaving badly.

Schiavo hits the news on a regular basis with some scare or another. At one point it was planes are going to fall out of the sky because of cheap counterfeit parts. The Pinnacle crash was because of core lock on the engines preventing relight. ( No mention of why the engines stopped, which was the pilots being idiots !)
None of her predictions of doom have ever come to pass but it does get her on the news and into peoples mind which is were her lawyer pals want her.

Widow - Aviation safety has never being made in lawsuits, it has being done by regulation and mindset. At the GA level there is no question lawsuits have driven suppliers out of the business, raised prices and decreased safety by driving up costs. Don't think so, try looking at what the widow Carnahan collected from Parker Hanifin and the price of vacuum pumps when Parker left the business.

If you want to be part of improving safety you need credibility with the players and the public. Scary Mary has none with the first and less and less with the later.

20driver
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Old 28th Feb 2009, 02:58
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Soon, the media and Ms. Schiavo will be describing the events of 9/11 as something caused by United and American Airlines through their negligence.
Soon? I would imagine these words have already been spoken inside of numerous attorney's offices - post 11 Sept.
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Old 28th Feb 2009, 03:59
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The Colgan Q400 Crash and the Turkish 738 at EHAM have much in common

Suggest re-reading these posts on this thread:
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ONE

TWO
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THREE
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FOUR
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and then comparing them to the posts below - on the thread covering the Turkish 738 crash at Schiphol:
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ALPHA
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BRAVO
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CHARLIE
.
DELTA
.
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Old 28th Feb 2009, 07:10
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For the ignorant: The Q400 DOES have deicing boots on the vertical and horizontal stabilisers!! That's the tail by the way!
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Old 28th Feb 2009, 22:48
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just for a moment

let's assume that the pilots were both pretty good pilots. just for argument's sake.

it would take alot to make the plane crash...so, I hope we are all a bit more careful in all flying, regardless of type. And that we keep our hand on the controls for all critical phases of flight..

Ever since the damn 737 rudder problem, we have written instructions to keep our hands on the controls (feet too) during low altitude stuff.
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Old 1st Mar 2009, 09:08
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Does the Q400 have CWS?

does this type of plane have CWS?
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 08:09
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Cws? No:d
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 09:39
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Aircraft was insured under a joint hull and liability policy for Delta. (Colgan Air (owned by Pinnacle Airlines) was operating Continental connnection).

Icy weather, on autopilot, Pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendations and violated the airlines own policy for flying in such conditions??

Value of the hull US19 million. The liability limit on their policy is US1.75 billion per occurrence. Policy underwritten by Global Aerospace (the lead aviation products underwriter for Bombardier the Canadian manufacturer of the Dash 8Q400.
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Old 2nd Mar 2009, 23:41
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It is important to remember that the auto pilot/icing thing is about severe icing...you can use the autopilot (according to FAA) in other icing situations...though this is at odds with NTSB and its view on autopilot use in icing conditions.

I remember the American Airlines DC10 in Chicagoland where the engine came off, ripped away hydraulic lines causing the slats to retract on one side...later simulations showed that if the plane had been flown FASTER than V2 it might have kept flying.

I think virtually all the recent crashes (turkey, buf) could have been avoided with another 20 knots of speed.

I am a big believer in stable approaches...but a few extra knots of speed makes some sense.

By the way, could this plane have been at a higher weight than the pilots thought, making their V speeds wrong?????????
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Old 3rd Mar 2009, 00:13
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Roger protectthehornet

With the advent of modern automation, I think the ART of flying (seat of the pants if you will) is being lost and sometimes flying is an ART and a bit of luck.
In my view with respect to the pilots, over reliance on automation rears it's ugly head as the real cause of so many accidents these days on highly automated cockpits.
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