Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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Flying by hand
Down in 3green:
There is nothing wrong in manual or hand flying, it makes one a better all round pilot.
The so called 1st generation jets were a pleasure to fly and we all survived them and had many a good time.
I agree with your comments.
Tmb
There is nothing wrong in manual or hand flying, it makes one a better all round pilot.
The so called 1st generation jets were a pleasure to fly and we all survived them and had many a good time.
I agree with your comments.
Tmb
Trash du Blanc
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There is nothing wrong in manual or hand flying, it makes one a better all round pilot.
We wisely changed that - now we are required to be proficient in all levels of automation....
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Huck - "As recently as a few years ago, my airline's manuals stated that the highest level of automation available would be used. Came straight out of the manufacturer's AOM."
**************
I asked about this issue. Basically the reply was that they have to write the manual for everyone, regardless of their background or experience, with lawyers looking over their shoulders while they write.
**************
I asked about this issue. Basically the reply was that they have to write the manual for everyone, regardless of their background or experience, with lawyers looking over their shoulders while they write.
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The problem is that, the non-aviator guys, have it all wrong...
I remember that, when I bought my first Pitts (in a venture with two other colleagues of mine), I decided to talk with the insurance company that was providing the LOL for my airline group of pilots, in order to extend the liability to include "aerobatic flying". They decided that the less time per year I would fly, the lower would be the extra-payment. I argued that proficiency is (normally) directly related with flight time, but they were not sensible with that theory...they do believe that, the more we fly, the more we represent a risk. That's why managements (through FCTM and SOP's) tend to insist on the use of the A/P. To reduce that risk...
I personally think that, one has to be proficient on proper use of automatic devices, as well as, on hand flying our aircraft. That is why one has to brake that tendency to be complacent and use all available opportunities to hand fly (and enjoy) riding the bird.
Fly Safe.
I remember that, when I bought my first Pitts (in a venture with two other colleagues of mine), I decided to talk with the insurance company that was providing the LOL for my airline group of pilots, in order to extend the liability to include "aerobatic flying". They decided that the less time per year I would fly, the lower would be the extra-payment. I argued that proficiency is (normally) directly related with flight time, but they were not sensible with that theory...they do believe that, the more we fly, the more we represent a risk. That's why managements (through FCTM and SOP's) tend to insist on the use of the A/P. To reduce that risk...
I personally think that, one has to be proficient on proper use of automatic devices, as well as, on hand flying our aircraft. That is why one has to brake that tendency to be complacent and use all available opportunities to hand fly (and enjoy) riding the bird.
Fly Safe.
The problem they are reacting to in promoting this (new) training approach is that crews either don't recognize the stall itself (because they've never had a chance to experience it) OR are so fixated on minimizing altitude loss in the recovery - which is a reasonable goal for a recovery from "close to" the stall but a recipe for disaster if the full stall has been encountered - they they neglect the "reduce alpha/increase airspeed" part of the recovery.
Excellent thread - just wanted to add that in most of the non-aerobatic [non-spin approved traing airplanes] the best way to prevent a spin is to teach the students to use the rudder to keep the ball centered [ or yawstring]... many CFI's are hesitant about stalls from banked attitudes, but if you are not side slipping you will most likely avoid the spin regime,...in the case of a stall from a banked attitude--- keep the ailerons neutral--- i.e. ---lower the AOA first --then unbank---as per a regular 'spiral dive recovery' the most important thing with stall is to make instinctive the lowering of AoA while preventing a sideslip---that's how ailerons are properly used in a stall
PA
PA
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 11th May 2009 at 18:59.
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There a quite a few who have paid the ultimate price, who have never screwed up, always aced the check rides and been great pilots.
None of us are immune from mistakes. Whether a mistake is going to kill you will depend on a lot of things. not just passing all the check rides etc.
None of us are immune from mistakes. Whether a mistake is going to kill you will depend on a lot of things. not just passing all the check rides etc.
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Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings
By ANDY PASZTOR
The Feb. 12 fatal crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 has sparked a novel labor-management dispute over appropriate uses of an essential safety tool: cockpit voice recordings.
Colgan Air Inc., which operated the flight, is proposing to download and analyze random cockpit recordings in the future as a means of enhancing safety and enforcing cockpit discipline. The union representing Colgan's roughly 480 pilots is dead set against it.
Federal investigators Tuesday are slated to release transcripts of the cockpit conversations that took place in the minutes before the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 plane stalled at below 3,000 feet, rolled violently and plummeted to the ground, killing 50 people.
According to people who have reviewed the transcripts, the crew engaged in a prolonged chit-chat as the plane descended from cruise altitude and then prepared to land. That violates basic aviation rules, which prohibit discussions of non-flying matters during certain phases of flight. Commercial pilots are prohibited by something called the "sterile cockpit rule" from engaging in extraneous conversations, particularly when maneuvering below 10,000 feet.
Firefighters surround the wreckage of Continental Connection Flight 3407 in February.
Colgan's management has approached local leaders of the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest U.S. pilot union, with the proposition that such spot checks of cockpit behavior would help supplement and improve existing safety initiatives. ALPA's leadership has responded with a resounding "no."
Not a single U.S. airline is believed to sample cockpit recordings in this fashion, and even general discussion of such a step is considered anathema by the pilot union. Pilots contend it would violate their privacy and demonstrate management's lack of trust in their professionalism. Individual pilots at Colgan and other carriers have criticized the airline's proposal, but so far ALPA leaders haven't made a public stink. An ALPA spokeswoman in Washington, D.C., decline to comment.
The National Transportation Safety Board hasn't been formally asked by either side to weigh in, but board members, staffers and outside air-safety advocates are likely to oppose the idea on the grounds that it could chill voluntary disclosures of safety lapses or mistakes.
Some safety experts fear the initiative could even backfire, encouraging certain pilots to try to deflect blame by possibly erasing cockpit conversations captured on the devices. Currently, such data is used exclusively in accident probes or as part of joint airline-union programs to investigate the causes of various types of close calls or dangerous incidents -- in the air as well as on the ground.
Captain's Training Faulted In Air Crash That Killed 50On Sunday, Colgan spokesman Joe Williams confirmed in an email that the carrier has proposed that recordings "be monitored for safety purposes by selected union and company pilots." He said the company believes such a step is the most effective way to obtain "an accurate view of pilot performance." Colgan believes the cockpit recordings "could become great accident prevention tools," he said
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said Colgan's concept is the natural evolution of current safety practices. "If we are identifying cockpit discipline" as an important safety factor and "there is a random, non-punitive way" to sample data, according to Mr. Cohen, "why wouldn't we at least begin talking" about broader uses of cockpit recorders?
Pilot union officials are especially sensitive about the topic because they already face calls by the NTSB to install video-recording systems in many cockpits. Overseas, cockpit voice recordings have become embroiled in criminal proceedings after some high-profile crashes. And pilot representatives increasingly are wary of any proposals to further strip recorded conversations of confidentiality.
Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings - WSJ.com
By ANDY PASZTOR
The Feb. 12 fatal crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 has sparked a novel labor-management dispute over appropriate uses of an essential safety tool: cockpit voice recordings.
Colgan Air Inc., which operated the flight, is proposing to download and analyze random cockpit recordings in the future as a means of enhancing safety and enforcing cockpit discipline. The union representing Colgan's roughly 480 pilots is dead set against it.
Federal investigators Tuesday are slated to release transcripts of the cockpit conversations that took place in the minutes before the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 plane stalled at below 3,000 feet, rolled violently and plummeted to the ground, killing 50 people.
According to people who have reviewed the transcripts, the crew engaged in a prolonged chit-chat as the plane descended from cruise altitude and then prepared to land. That violates basic aviation rules, which prohibit discussions of non-flying matters during certain phases of flight. Commercial pilots are prohibited by something called the "sterile cockpit rule" from engaging in extraneous conversations, particularly when maneuvering below 10,000 feet.
Firefighters surround the wreckage of Continental Connection Flight 3407 in February.
Colgan's management has approached local leaders of the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest U.S. pilot union, with the proposition that such spot checks of cockpit behavior would help supplement and improve existing safety initiatives. ALPA's leadership has responded with a resounding "no."
Not a single U.S. airline is believed to sample cockpit recordings in this fashion, and even general discussion of such a step is considered anathema by the pilot union. Pilots contend it would violate their privacy and demonstrate management's lack of trust in their professionalism. Individual pilots at Colgan and other carriers have criticized the airline's proposal, but so far ALPA leaders haven't made a public stink. An ALPA spokeswoman in Washington, D.C., decline to comment.
The National Transportation Safety Board hasn't been formally asked by either side to weigh in, but board members, staffers and outside air-safety advocates are likely to oppose the idea on the grounds that it could chill voluntary disclosures of safety lapses or mistakes.
Some safety experts fear the initiative could even backfire, encouraging certain pilots to try to deflect blame by possibly erasing cockpit conversations captured on the devices. Currently, such data is used exclusively in accident probes or as part of joint airline-union programs to investigate the causes of various types of close calls or dangerous incidents -- in the air as well as on the ground.
Captain's Training Faulted In Air Crash That Killed 50On Sunday, Colgan spokesman Joe Williams confirmed in an email that the carrier has proposed that recordings "be monitored for safety purposes by selected union and company pilots." He said the company believes such a step is the most effective way to obtain "an accurate view of pilot performance." Colgan believes the cockpit recordings "could become great accident prevention tools," he said
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said Colgan's concept is the natural evolution of current safety practices. "If we are identifying cockpit discipline" as an important safety factor and "there is a random, non-punitive way" to sample data, according to Mr. Cohen, "why wouldn't we at least begin talking" about broader uses of cockpit recorders?
Pilot union officials are especially sensitive about the topic because they already face calls by the NTSB to install video-recording systems in many cockpits. Overseas, cockpit voice recordings have become embroiled in criminal proceedings after some high-profile crashes. And pilot representatives increasingly are wary of any proposals to further strip recorded conversations of confidentiality.
Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings - WSJ.com
This is a worrying development and it is doubtful whether it would do anything to monitor pilot performance. Perhaps recordings of all management and executive meetings should be made available to monitor their approach to safety matters? Discuss.
The CVR transcript is now available on the net (if the server is not overloaded).
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/418693.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/418693.pdf
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The Group Factual and the CVR seem to indicate that the FO retracted the flaps without command from the Capt.
CAM
How significant an effect would the flap retraction have had on the Q400 stall speed?
On the Q400 stall characteristics/recovery?
At 2216:02 EST, FDR data showed the engine power levers were reduced to flight idle and both engines torque values declined to minimum thrust. At 2216:07, Buffalo transmitted, “Colgan thirty four zero seven contact tower one two zero point five have a good night.” At 2216:09 EST the crew extended the landing gear and the auto flight system captured the ILS 23 localizer. Three seconds after that the crew moved the engine conditions levers forward to the maximum RPM position, and at the same time, 2216:12 EST, the flight replied, “over to tower you do the same thirty four zero seven.”
According to FDR indications, at 2216:28 the crew moved the flaps to 10°, and two seconds later the stall warning stick shaker activated. The autopilot disconnected at about the same time that the stick shaker activated. The crew added power to approximately 75% torque. The airplane began a sharp pitch up motion, accompanied by a left roll, followed by a right roll, during which the stick pusher activated. During this time, the indicated airspeed continued to decrease to less than 100 kts. Eight seconds after the flaps had been selected to 10°, and at an airspeed of less than 110 kts, the flaps began to retract. Sixteen seconds later the flaps were fully retracted.
According to FDR indications, at 2216:28 the crew moved the flaps to 10°, and two seconds later the stall warning stick shaker activated. The autopilot disconnected at about the same time that the stick shaker activated. The crew added power to approximately 75% torque. The airplane began a sharp pitch up motion, accompanied by a left roll, followed by a right roll, during which the stick pusher activated. During this time, the indicated airspeed continued to decrease to less than 100 kts. Eight seconds after the flaps had been selected to 10°, and at an airspeed of less than 110 kts, the flaps began to retract. Sixteen seconds later the flaps were fully retracted.
22:16:35.4
CAM
[sound similar to stick shaker lasting until end of recording]
22:16:37.1
HOT-2
I put the flaps up.
I put the flaps up.
On the Q400 stall characteristics/recovery?
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* Pilot in Crash Near Buffalo Had Failed 5 Performance Tests
The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday that the captain, Marvin Renslow, had failed five “check rides,” or hands-on tests, conducted in a cockpit or a simulator, before the Feb. 12 crash.
He also had never received hands-on training with a safety system that activated just before the plane went down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/nyregion/12pilot.html
He also had never received hands-on training with a safety system that activated just before the plane went down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/nyregion/12pilot.html
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Washington Post: Recorder Shows Pilots Discussed Anxiety Over Conditions, Training
Here's another angle from the Washington Post.
"Minutes before crashing, Colgan Air pilots discussed their lack of experience flying planes under icing conditions and expressed anxiety about their training as they looked out of the cockpit windows and saw ice built up on the wings. The revelations came to light today when the National Transportation Safety Board released transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder. The board is holding three days of hearings on the Feb. 12, 2009, crash, which killed all 49 on board and one person on the ground.
First Officer Rebecca Shaw, in conversation with Captain Marvin Renslow, expressed wariness about the possibility of being promoted to captain without proper training.
"I've never seen icing conditions," Shaw tells Renslow. "I've never de-iced. I've never seen any-- I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of call[s.] You know I'd have freaked out. I'd have, like, seen this much ice and thought, 'Oh, my gosh, we're going to crash."
Full story can be found here: washingtonpost.com
"Minutes before crashing, Colgan Air pilots discussed their lack of experience flying planes under icing conditions and expressed anxiety about their training as they looked out of the cockpit windows and saw ice built up on the wings. The revelations came to light today when the National Transportation Safety Board released transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder. The board is holding three days of hearings on the Feb. 12, 2009, crash, which killed all 49 on board and one person on the ground.
First Officer Rebecca Shaw, in conversation with Captain Marvin Renslow, expressed wariness about the possibility of being promoted to captain without proper training.
"I've never seen icing conditions," Shaw tells Renslow. "I've never de-iced. I've never seen any-- I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of call[s.] You know I'd have freaked out. I'd have, like, seen this much ice and thought, 'Oh, my gosh, we're going to crash."
Full story can be found here: washingtonpost.com
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"I've never seen icing conditions," Shaw tells Renslow. "I've never de-iced. I've never seen any-- I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of call[s.] You know I'd have freaked out. I'd have, like, seen this much ice and thought, 'Oh, my gosh, we're going to crash."
This speaks volumes of not only the training practices of the airline, but of it's overall skills assesment of the people they are putting in the cockipt, down to individual flight assignment. This is not a good story.
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"Patrickal: Holy Crap!!!. And she is flying right seat into Buffalo in the winter time!!!
This speaks volumes of not only the training practices of the airline, but of it's overall skills assesment of the people they are putting in the cockipt, down to individual flight assignment. This is not a good story."
I hate to tell you, but I think this sort of stuff is more prevalent in this industry than makes it to the surface.
I said this before, the scary thing will be flying in 10 or so years, when these right seaters will be in the left.
The profession of aviator is a dying one.
This speaks volumes of not only the training practices of the airline, but of it's overall skills assesment of the people they are putting in the cockipt, down to individual flight assignment. This is not a good story."
I hate to tell you, but I think this sort of stuff is more prevalent in this industry than makes it to the surface.
I said this before, the scary thing will be flying in 10 or so years, when these right seaters will be in the left.
The profession of aviator is a dying one.
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why?
I would like to know why:
why didn't the pilot apply 100 percent plus torque instead of 75%? (torque equals power)
why did the copilot retract the flaps without command? (unsure of what happened here)
why didn't the copilot call in sick, were there penalties for doing so?
How did the plane get so slow in the first place?
IS there any chance the pilot lied about his total flying time prior to employment with the airline ? (we call it parker P51 time...lying in logbook?)
why didn't the pilot apply 100 percent plus torque instead of 75%? (torque equals power)
why did the copilot retract the flaps without command? (unsure of what happened here)
why didn't the copilot call in sick, were there penalties for doing so?
How did the plane get so slow in the first place?
IS there any chance the pilot lied about his total flying time prior to employment with the airline ? (we call it parker P51 time...lying in logbook?)
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What we have here is a chatty Cathy running his mouth when he should be flying, and someone who did not belong in an airplane.
For the most part I think it would be best to have same sex crews. The male-female dynamic is not something that should be present on a flight deck. Call me a dinosaur or call me a chauvinist pig, I really don't care - this is clearly a case where this dude is chatting up this girl, running his mouth constantly instead of flying the airplane.
Continental can, and should, pay through the anus on this one. Horrible. Sheer stupidity of a like rarely encountered (e.g. kid in the cockpit, FE in the FO seat, lying braggart in the FO seat are some cases I remember).
-drl
For the most part I think it would be best to have same sex crews. The male-female dynamic is not something that should be present on a flight deck. Call me a dinosaur or call me a chauvinist pig, I really don't care - this is clearly a case where this dude is chatting up this girl, running his mouth constantly instead of flying the airplane.
Continental can, and should, pay through the anus on this one. Horrible. Sheer stupidity of a like rarely encountered (e.g. kid in the cockpit, FE in the FO seat, lying braggart in the FO seat are some cases I remember).
-drl
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Having flown with countless females both as my captains and as my FOs, I can say deSitter's comments are baseless.
No matter if the other pilot is a hot babe, somebody with an age difference that could be your father/son, or a pilot that you don't enjoy flying with, a professional will put these feelings aside and do their work properly and behave in a professional manner.
I can't access the ntsb page, so I won't comment on the incident itself until I get through.
No matter if the other pilot is a hot babe, somebody with an age difference that could be your father/son, or a pilot that you don't enjoy flying with, a professional will put these feelings aside and do their work properly and behave in a professional manner.
I can't access the ntsb page, so I won't comment on the incident itself until I get through.