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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

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Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo

Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:07
  #561 (permalink)  
 
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From the cockpit you can see the outer section of the wing, if I strain to look I can see the prop spinner and no further inwards.
We have a wing inspection light that can be switched on to light up the wing when it's dark.

Hope this helps
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Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:10
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Does an ex-Q400 driver count DC?!

It does stand out fairly well against the black background of the boots. Certainly the kind of ice I've seen on it anyway. You can definitely see it breaking off when the boots were working. The inspection lights work pretty well at night too.

Of course in thick cloud, at night and with the landing lights on there can be quite a bit of light reflecting going on it and that would make it quite hard to see.
Ya.....Q-400, whatever 3407 was.

Your last sentence though is probably what they were dealing with that night.

Thanks--
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Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:13
  #563 (permalink)  
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DC you are right. I only meant I used to fly it = ex.
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Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:15
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From the cockpit you can see the outer section of the wing, if I strain to look I can see the prop spinner and no further inwards.
We have a wing inspection light that can be switched on to light up the wing when it's dark.

Hope this helps
Ya...thanks.

You guys are lucky. We couldn't see any part of the wing from our front office!
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Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:30
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Aviation International News reporting,

The flight’s captain, Marvin Renslow, had flown more than 3,379 hours in his career, but only 110 hours on the Q400. First Officer Rebecca Shaw had accumulated 2,244 hours, 774 hours of which she flew on the Q400 for Colgan.

Wonder if experience/time on type could be a card in the deck.

NTSB Releases More Details on Colgan Crash: AINonline
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Old 17th Feb 2009, 23:41
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As a ex Q400 driver I never experienced problems with the de icing system. Even in moderate to severe icing with prop vibrations and heavy icing on the windscreen the de icing system works fine. I am sure the system worked fine.

One of you guys asked if it is possible to see the wing at night from the cockpit; Yes you can see the prop and everything further down the wing. There is also a light that shines on the de ice boot.

I think the following happened;

Crew was tired. It was the last leg of a long day. Flying in the dark and in the clouds ( with must have caused turbulence ) made them even more tired.

While being cleared for approach they levelled of at 2300'. The captain who was PF forgot to add some power to keep the speed. The plane decelerated to 134 IAS. He gave some power.
Flaps 10 were set and gear was selected down. This causes an increase of drag. The aircraft further decelarated and caused the AP to pitch up to maintain 2300' Then the stickshaker went off that disconnected the AP automatically.
Captain noticed the low speed and that ref speed incr was selected on. Due to the high pitch aircraft was unstable in pitch. Captain was shocked and gave full power and while doing this he agressively pulled the yoke. ( like he was performing a go around ).
Aircraft pitched up to 31 degrees. Aircraft stickpusher started to push. Captain pulled against the stickpusher. Aircraft stalled and went 45 degrees down with 46 degrees left bank. Because of the low airspeed no effective controls over elevator . Captain tried to recover by rolling the aircraft to the right and crashed.

Last edited by Beafis; 17th Feb 2009 at 23:53.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 00:01
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DC you are right. I only meant I used to fly it = ex.
So kay.....I got one o' those too. An 'ex'!
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 00:32
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Icing Reports

The crew observed “significant” ice accretion on the aircraft’s windows and wings prior to the eventual upset that led to the crash. The airplane’s flight data recorder indicates that the airplane’s autopilot did not disengage until the stick shaker activated, however, and airmets for the Buffalo area indicated no worse than moderate icing. In fact, only 27 minutes after the accident another Colgan Q400 flew to Buffalo from Newark on virtually the same flight path, said Chealander.

Apart from airmets for light and moderate icing, the National Weather Service issued a sigmet for turbulence that night in the Buffalo area, said Chealander. He also noted that a pirep indicated severe icing over Dunkirk, N.Y., some 50 miles southwest of Buffalo.
Meteorology is such an exact science, that "severe" icing 50 miles southwest of Buffalo can be discounted since another flight made it on the same path only 27 minutes later.

OK, so how did we get to 134 kts. with the flaps up?

I would love to listen to the CVR.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 00:43
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I would love to listen to the CVR.
You'll have to be appointed to the NTSB by the President.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 00:47
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Beafis does definitely worth looking at, sounds experienced in in TP ops.


As does anything Loose rivets says
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 00:54
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Beafis -
While being cleared for approach they levelled of at 2300'. The captain who was PF forgot to add some power to keep the speed
While this is 'possible', it is unlikely in my opinion being as how that's almost a given act for any pilot to do, especially if at a low speed to begin with.

Anything's possible, but I think we should wait for the final report before we hang anyone.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:02
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Scary reading from Beafis, but I think hi is spot on.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:19
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To me (as a pilot), saying the guy "forgot to add some power" is sort of like saying, after a road accident, "the driver forgot to steer around the corner." Hrd to accept.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:35
  #574 (permalink)  
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Hrd to accept.
I know. But I've seen it on larger transports than this one. In that case it's what happens when a) automation is relied upon and the company has bought the sales pitch, and b) when pilots yield authority to the automation and are "uncomfortable" disconnecting through lack of practise and knowledge.

Both are training matters - the first a philosophical one and the second a money one.

In either case, monitoring is the requirement and it is a well known fact that humans are poor monitors.

This is a comment about automation and not about this accident. It may or may not be a factor here.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:36
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Although Cpt Renslow had only 110 hrs in type, I think I heard he had considerable prior experience in the SAAB 340.

Is there someone who can comment on comparative handling of these two types in this condition (approach w/ icing)?
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:51
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Forgot to add power?

I posted this thought many pages ago and I have to remind all of you that there were TWO pilots in the cockpit.

I also asked extensive questions about the autothrottle system...NO AUTHTHROTTLES, so any autopilot level off always requires a power adjustment.

AND FOLKS, the NTSB has already listened to the CVR...wouldn't we have heard something like" Oh Sh$#%t, I forgot to add power"?

I have a feeling that something else was heard like: what's going on here.?

Does anyone recall a boot falling off a plane...EMB120 I think...not enough of the screws were reattached. Hmmmm
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 01:56
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Beafis,

You make some good points, but I think all of us who have flown long days in bad weather would still remember how to fly. The only way I could get my head around forgetting to add power would be as the aircraft leveled off the PF did not add power because he was not awake, eyes wide open but, momentarily checked out.

Just a thought. My thoughts are with the families of those that lost their lives.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 02:00
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Beafis

I think the following happened;

...........................................
keep it simple lest we think that you are trying to curry points

Stick to one link in the chain at a time and expand on that

after all the only thing that really counts is the ability to minimize a specific "known" link from causing another accident
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 02:30
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With reference to forgetting to add power. I've seen it in the simulator, usually when the pilot is distracted by something. Sometimes it's not so much forgetting to add power, but not adding enough power for the situation (one engine with gear and flap out for example) and then not keeping their scan up so they don't notice the degrading performance (e.g, distracted by performing a circling manoeuvre in bad weather with an engine out.) I'm not saying it's what's happened here but the concept is not far fetched.

I also saw it a lot from a pilot who was new to the aeroplane and new to turboprops. He wasn't used to the lack of aural speed and power cues compared to the piston engine aircraft he'd been flying. But that was when he was just doing his endorsement so his hours on type were in single digits, far less than the crew in this accident, and he soon learned to bring the power levers up when leveling off.
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Old 18th Feb 2009, 03:12
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Does anyone recall a boot falling off a plane...EMB120 I think...not enough of the screws were reattached. Hmmmm
It was either a 120 or a Bandit, and it was the whole stab leading edge that departed.

EDIT: Found the accident summary
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