Korean Air intercepted by German Fighters
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I wonder if there is any practicle reminder, or procedure to keep pilots situationally aware of the ATC envirnoment? Although this case was extreme another more likely scenerio could be over the middle of the Pacific at night.
SRS, one of the ingredients is situational and positional awareness. There'll be reporting points at which you can expect a frequency change. If you don't get the change in a radar environment, a short call to ATC might catch it if it was forgotten to hand you over to another sector.
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A few years back an aircraft in our company was intercepted by two French military aircraft due to missed ATC radio calls.Apparently the accepted procedure is for the intercepting aircraft to switch off their transponders, but this did not happen and with one fighter positioned above and one below the company aircraft they received alternating TCAS climb and TCAS descend RA's. Not good!!
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In the UK I believe they will only intercept if there is no RT contact for a duration AND there is specific intelligence about either the airline, the origin or the destination. Saying that I have seen 2 intercepted and the 25 mile exclusion zone we have to set up is not much fun in busy airspace...
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'scuse my ignorance. Do these modern high tech airliners no longer carry SELCAL with its attendant attention grabbing chime ? Does not an incoming ACARS message provoke an audible alert especially if not answered ?
Thanks for your time and trouble folks.
Be lucky
David
Thanks for your time and trouble folks.
Be lucky
David
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Often the 'too quiet' to 'too loud' adjustment is very, very tiny. And from 'too quiet' to 'off' is also very small. It's not uncommon to see the other guy answering and you realize your volume has shifted to the point of being 'off'
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As an ATCO I have had this happen to me several times (5-6). Of the 2 major events one involved a stuck transmit frequency where most of the western world were entertained to an amusing dialogue about the state of American football for approx 20 minutes before one of the co-respondances noted "Haven't heard much from ATC recently....."
Second occasion was transit from Lands End to Dover. Not too much of a problem for the first half but from SAM to DVR a lot of excitement...
Inadvertantly turned the volume down...
We would have scrambled the UK interceptor force (English Electric Lightnings) but "They'd make an awful lot of noise over London and besides there would be no point until the ac gets to Eastbourne"
A comment made to me in jest by the duty Master controller (we were aquaintances) but the Lightening was rather short ranged and to have scrambled it earlier would have involved also launching a tanker and then all the excitment of AAR in the Dover area.
Second occasion was transit from Lands End to Dover. Not too much of a problem for the first half but from SAM to DVR a lot of excitement...
Inadvertantly turned the volume down...
We would have scrambled the UK interceptor force (English Electric Lightnings) but "They'd make an awful lot of noise over London and besides there would be no point until the ac gets to Eastbourne"
A comment made to me in jest by the duty Master controller (we were aquaintances) but the Lightening was rather short ranged and to have scrambled it earlier would have involved also launching a tanker and then all the excitment of AAR in the Dover area.
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Korean 01:40 Silence!
Well, most seem to skimp on the cockpit retrofit, so likely KQ didn't have that 30 min 'alert'! Moreover, looks like the Kapitan was dozing and the field was open for the p2 - probably a 'nue-bee! Cheers!
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robin747,
KAL aircraft have the "pilot response" alarm but it won't come up when you touch one of the monitored switches like MCP controls, CDU's and so on.
Korean pilots often use the offside tuning function on the audio selector panels.
Well, we all know that the offside tuning light should be exinguished and that also became procedure recently....for sure they screwed up the frequencies this way, including guard.
But flying over central Europe for 1:40 without even wondering about the silence?
That's a different story....
KAL aircraft have the "pilot response" alarm but it won't come up when you touch one of the monitored switches like MCP controls, CDU's and so on.
Korean pilots often use the offside tuning function on the audio selector panels.
Well, we all know that the offside tuning light should be exinguished and that also became procedure recently....for sure they screwed up the frequencies this way, including guard.
But flying over central Europe for 1:40 without even wondering about the silence?
That's a different story....
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KAL...accidents waiting to happen
Having flown with Korean pilots many suns ago and now " safely " retired, I have so far refrained from posting anything close to critisizing KAL. Now, with this incident and many more that have been much more serious ( but did not make it to the public fora ), I guess it's time for my 2 cents worth.
Flying in KAL was indeed very challenging and I aged tremendously during my 5 years there. You gotta watch your F/O like a hawk lest the screw ups ( missing calls, misinterpreting clearances and so many more to enumerate here without getting my b/p up the stratosphere ) get you into deep kaka. You cannot really rest in a augment crew or 3 man crew because you never know when when you gonna get a high altitude/low speed buffet because the geniuses in the pointy end have no clue about high altitude performance, autopilot characteristics and general weather avoidance and flight management. Many a times it's like a solo operations into ORD, JFK, LHR and LAX. Even some expat captains were suspect; I operated a 3 man crew flight into Europe with an expat captain ( how he got a level 6 English in Korean was beyond me ) who missed or could'nt understand most of the ATC transmisson!! Mind you, there are now many conmen fortune hunters in KAL, you may just have to live with that or live to regret that you have to be there.
You got to be very brave or foolhardy to really enjoy life in KAL. Having said that, KAL has one of the best if not the best commuting contracts around. The money ( if it's tax free ) was good, the travel benefits and dead headings were excellent, free food coupons ( sic! ) etc
Flying in KAL was indeed very challenging and I aged tremendously during my 5 years there. You gotta watch your F/O like a hawk lest the screw ups ( missing calls, misinterpreting clearances and so many more to enumerate here without getting my b/p up the stratosphere ) get you into deep kaka. You cannot really rest in a augment crew or 3 man crew because you never know when when you gonna get a high altitude/low speed buffet because the geniuses in the pointy end have no clue about high altitude performance, autopilot characteristics and general weather avoidance and flight management. Many a times it's like a solo operations into ORD, JFK, LHR and LAX. Even some expat captains were suspect; I operated a 3 man crew flight into Europe with an expat captain ( how he got a level 6 English in Korean was beyond me ) who missed or could'nt understand most of the ATC transmisson!! Mind you, there are now many conmen fortune hunters in KAL, you may just have to live with that or live to regret that you have to be there.
You got to be very brave or foolhardy to really enjoy life in KAL. Having said that, KAL has one of the best if not the best commuting contracts around. The money ( if it's tax free ) was good, the travel benefits and dead headings were excellent, free food coupons ( sic! ) etc
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KAL does have some excellent pilots but most of the locals ( and some foreign riff raffs ) are just hilly billies piloting million dollar aircraft like chimps on tricycles...........
I have one word...... SCARY!!!
I have one word...... SCARY!!!
scary?
Your opinion is frankly impudent. Suggest before you make any further derogatory and defamatory comments, you get into the ring and gain some experience, then be somewhat more diplomatic about your language.
There are a lot of excellent Koreans, and there is a level of standardization to their operation that is impressive. The Koreans operate day in and day out in fairly severe weather, and without the comfort of being native speakers. It isn't like the rest of the world cuts them any slack in that regard.
Before you slang off on them, perhaps it is worth recalling some of our own, western aviation failings, sometimes that is not so pleasant to confront.
There are a lot of excellent Koreans, and there is a level of standardization to their operation that is impressive. The Koreans operate day in and day out in fairly severe weather, and without the comfort of being native speakers. It isn't like the rest of the world cuts them any slack in that regard.
Before you slang off on them, perhaps it is worth recalling some of our own, western aviation failings, sometimes that is not so pleasant to confront.
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The Gooks of Hazard.
Bad Karma that, torturing and eating dogs.
KAL truly are maligned, sometimes aren't they?
Read here and think again every time it all seems too much here in Europe.
KAL truly are maligned, sometimes aren't they?
Read here and think again every time it all seems too much here in Europe.
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Yep, fairly grim reading indeed Leo.
In all fairness they do seem to have got their act together after the Skyteam audits as part of the condition for joining.
I have several colleagues working there, the general feeling seems to be that standards are much much better, but that there remains a latent " do it by the book/imagination not required " mentality, combined with perhaps less than ideal CRM from the ex Air-Force Korean Capts.
There are also lots of horror stories of expats being failed on conversion courses (particularly on 777 ) mainly it seems for failing to do as bid by rote.
At the end of the day you can't change the mentality & cultural mindset of a nation in 10 years, at least the statistics would tend to support the theory that they are going in the right direction, or maybe they are just having a lucky spell after a previously black period.
In all fairness they do seem to have got their act together after the Skyteam audits as part of the condition for joining.
I have several colleagues working there, the general feeling seems to be that standards are much much better, but that there remains a latent " do it by the book/imagination not required " mentality, combined with perhaps less than ideal CRM from the ex Air-Force Korean Capts.
There are also lots of horror stories of expats being failed on conversion courses (particularly on 777 ) mainly it seems for failing to do as bid by rote.
At the end of the day you can't change the mentality & cultural mindset of a nation in 10 years, at least the statistics would tend to support the theory that they are going in the right direction, or maybe they are just having a lucky spell after a previously black period.