LH A320 reportedly within 0.5m of crashing at FRA !!
As people stated above, for flight control checks, it would be quick and simple for all planes to have someone look at all primary flight control surfaces as we twist/push-pull the yoke and push both rudder pedals, before taxi-out.
It would take only about one or two minutes (provided that numerous ramp personnel were trained to scan: whether mechanics/engineers or not), and other than doing this again after de-icing procedures, it could have prevented such a near-tragedy.
Unfortunately, most airlines would probably not spend extra dollars to train ramp personnel for such a totally new concept. Some might not even like the extra printing cost for the paperwork, nor the extra one or two minute$ of fuel burn, as we create a two-minute delay for the pushback or powerback at the gate/stand next to us.
It would take only about one or two minutes (provided that numerous ramp personnel were trained to scan: whether mechanics/engineers or not), and other than doing this again after de-icing procedures, it could have prevented such a near-tragedy.
Unfortunately, most airlines would probably not spend extra dollars to train ramp personnel for such a totally new concept. Some might not even like the extra printing cost for the paperwork, nor the extra one or two minute$ of fuel burn, as we create a two-minute delay for the pushback or powerback at the gate/stand next to us.
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..........significant problems may arise through maintenance of complex systems.
You listening, Monsieur Airbus ?
Too "clever" for their own, or anyone else's, good.
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Note: The controlinputs showed correctly on the ECAM at first...
I had a tour with that CPT a couple of weeks later, and he told me, that they did the Flight Control Check acc SOP on the ground. The tricky part was this: At first, the control inputs showed correctly on the ground!!
Then they had their flight with the little adrenalin-kick upon TO..
After they landed, they checked the flight controls of the left Stick again..
The first 1 or 2 sec correct display, and then the amazing thing happened: They flickered a little and then swung over to the wrong side!
At a certain point checking, double checking and so on reach a level, where it isnīt practicable anymore. This was just too hidden and tricky.
This was the point, where pilots did the job, they are so well paid for..
I had a tour with that CPT a couple of weeks later, and he told me, that they did the Flight Control Check acc SOP on the ground. The tricky part was this: At first, the control inputs showed correctly on the ground!!
Then they had their flight with the little adrenalin-kick upon TO..
After they landed, they checked the flight controls of the left Stick again..
The first 1 or 2 sec correct display, and then the amazing thing happened: They flickered a little and then swung over to the wrong side!
At a certain point checking, double checking and so on reach a level, where it isnīt practicable anymore. This was just too hidden and tricky.
This was the point, where pilots did the job, they are so well paid for..
The first 1 or 2 sec correct display, and then the amazing thing happened: They flickered a little and then swung over to the wrong side!
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As people stated above, for flight control checks, it would be quick and simple for all planes to have someone look at all primary flight control surfaces as we twist/push-pull the yoke and push both rudder pedals, before taxi-out.
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It happens in full scale life, too, cwatters.
After de-icing, one does a controls check amongst other things. I give controls name and direction of movement on the intercom.....the guy on the ground confirms full movement and direction.
You give the ground guys a bum steer on movement direction (intentionally or not) and I'll guarantee that a lot of them will fail to pick up the error. We are'nt even talking an Engineer in my outfit -- it's often one of the cleaners who multi-tasks as a push-back guy.
Good game !
After de-icing, one does a controls check amongst other things. I give controls name and direction of movement on the intercom.....the guy on the ground confirms full movement and direction.
You give the ground guys a bum steer on movement direction (intentionally or not) and I'll guarantee that a lot of them will fail to pick up the error. We are'nt even talking an Engineer in my outfit -- it's often one of the cleaners who multi-tasks as a push-back guy.
Good game !
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> After de-icing, one does a controls check amongst other things. I give
> controls name and direction of movement on the intercom.....the guy on
> the ground confirms full movement and direction.
No, have HIM tell you the direction/sense of the controls after you have moved them. If you tell him LEFT RUDDER and give full RIGHT, I'll bet many will still OK it. And you should also check each side stick as well.
> controls name and direction of movement on the intercom.....the guy on
> the ground confirms full movement and direction.
No, have HIM tell you the direction/sense of the controls after you have moved them. If you tell him LEFT RUDDER and give full RIGHT, I'll bet many will still OK it. And you should also check each side stick as well.
please wait
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Oh I have to say I love my good old wheel and the possibility to x-check my stick movements with actual aileron deflection. Though I have to admit, flying with some newcomers you can always get them by performing flight contro check (without them looking out) and then ask which aileron would be up and which one down...
- No way in any A3we, specially not in the new 600 version. But I recall past days with many carriers, where a mechanic was x-checking the flt-controls outside upon the first flight of the day...
Probably not inovative enough for the "puesch buetton engineers" at TOU...never mind...
- No way in any A3we, specially not in the new 600 version. But I recall past days with many carriers, where a mechanic was x-checking the flt-controls outside upon the first flight of the day...
Probably not inovative enough for the "puesch buetton engineers" at TOU...never mind...
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AIRBUS not really to blame : if you bring your car to the mechanic and he make a mistake, do you criticise the car maker?
As a previous engineer on A320, I have never seen a side stick (which is flight control and I guess vital component!!) be replaced with a check consisting only at a glance on a screen.....we always had a look inside at the screen and outside at the controls to check for proper deflection and that was mandatory!
And as a private and line pilot, I always check visually the controls through the window BEFORE departure, I guess to what I see for real, aviation related matters speaking.
Haven't you ever experienced a problem with your home personal computer that you nor the specialist could explain?
And beside this, when you look at a screen to check an indication, there is a lag effect, in that case, the aileron where moving in the correct direction then after the lag they came reversely...If the pilots or engineer would have checked wih their eyes directly the flight controls, they would have seen the misbehaviour!
The F/O had the flight back to control seconds after TO which is sure very well done BUT there have been a chain of error that could have been broken before TO with an visual eye flight control check.
Human make errors.
As a previous engineer on A320, I have never seen a side stick (which is flight control and I guess vital component!!) be replaced with a check consisting only at a glance on a screen.....we always had a look inside at the screen and outside at the controls to check for proper deflection and that was mandatory!
And as a private and line pilot, I always check visually the controls through the window BEFORE departure, I guess to what I see for real, aviation related matters speaking.
Haven't you ever experienced a problem with your home personal computer that you nor the specialist could explain?
And beside this, when you look at a screen to check an indication, there is a lag effect, in that case, the aileron where moving in the correct direction then after the lag they came reversely...If the pilots or engineer would have checked wih their eyes directly the flight controls, they would have seen the misbehaviour!
The F/O had the flight back to control seconds after TO which is sure very well done BUT there have been a chain of error that could have been broken before TO with an visual eye flight control check.
Human make errors.
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airmen
I may have mis-interpreted your post, but pilots can not see the control surfaces when doing the control checks on most transport jets. On the 744 one can just about see the outboard engines, on the A320 the wingtips, so we have to rely on the displayed control positions. What are you suggesting?
I may have mis-interpreted your post, but pilots can not see the control surfaces when doing the control checks on most transport jets. On the 744 one can just about see the outboard engines, on the A320 the wingtips, so we have to rely on the displayed control positions. What are you suggesting?
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I think the main problem here is the positioning of the flight controls check in the checklist. The check is done when taxiing, so no external visual confirmation can be performed. But if done right after pushback by field personell, it would take a minute or two to perform the check , at no extra fuel-cost , as one is required to let the engines warm up... Then again I might be wrong.
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TopBunk,
Firstly the guys who replaced the side-stick could have done this with a handheld radio and one guy outside to check visually.
Secondly if you see on the log book when you take over the plane that engineers have done something on the flight controls, ( replaced the side-stick in our case) it is not forbidden for the crew to double check the function on ground with your flight buddy?
Think easy!
Firstly the guys who replaced the side-stick could have done this with a handheld radio and one guy outside to check visually.
Secondly if you see on the log book when you take over the plane that engineers have done something on the flight controls, ( replaced the side-stick in our case) it is not forbidden for the crew to double check the function on ground with your flight buddy?
Think easy!
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I don't have any issue with engineers checking with a colleague after any flight control repair, in fact I am surprised that it is not SOP. It obviously is not, or is only paid lip service to, however - remember the A320(?) about 10 years ago out of maintenance on which the spoilers were still disabled.
I read your post to suggest that as a matter of routine, pilots verify flight control movement themselves, or with the ground crew, before each flight, and was pointing out the problems.
I don't have any issue with engineers checking with a colleague after any flight control repair, in fact I am surprised that it is not SOP. It obviously is not, or is only paid lip service to, however - remember the A320(?) about 10 years ago out of maintenance on which the spoilers were still disabled.
I read your post to suggest that as a matter of routine, pilots verify flight control movement themselves, or with the ground crew, before each flight, and was pointing out the problems.
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Maintanance performed the check. One in the cockpit, one outside.
Problem was, they were in a hurry, and only did the check from the right Stick. Contributing factor was lack of personell and the night shift.
I remember that, when turning your head, and smashing your nose to the maximum towards the window, rolling your eyeballs beyond normal operational range, you actually could see the ailorons and the outboard spoilers on an A320 (a lot more on an A319, and at least the ailorons on A321).
I have to admit, that my nose is rather short, but not very flexible. Depending on the shape and consistence of your nose and the mobility of your eyes the above mentioned observations may vary a little
Problem was, they were in a hurry, and only did the check from the right Stick. Contributing factor was lack of personell and the night shift.
I remember that, when turning your head, and smashing your nose to the maximum towards the window, rolling your eyeballs beyond normal operational range, you actually could see the ailorons and the outboard spoilers on an A320 (a lot more on an A319, and at least the ailorons on A321).
I have to admit, that my nose is rather short, but not very flexible. Depending on the shape and consistence of your nose and the mobility of your eyes the above mentioned observations may vary a little
