Cabin crew face trial after speaking up about icing on the wing
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Quote: “The first officer admitted in a court deposition into the trial against the flight attendants, that there was frost on the wings of the aircraft...”
Quote: “How did the FAA/company deal with the Calgary report?”
More relevant is how did Transport Canada deal with the whole situation? Is it an offence in Canada to try to take off with contaminants on any of the critical surfaces. The CARs apply to all foreign aircraft, companies and personnel operating in Canada. The first officer has apparently admitted that there was frost on the wings.
Shouldn’t the company and the pilots be grateful that the F/As prevented them from breaking the law at the very minimum?
Quote: “How did the FAA/company deal with the Calgary report?”
More relevant is how did Transport Canada deal with the whole situation? Is it an offence in Canada to try to take off with contaminants on any of the critical surfaces. The CARs apply to all foreign aircraft, companies and personnel operating in Canada. The first officer has apparently admitted that there was frost on the wings.
Shouldn’t the company and the pilots be grateful that the F/As prevented them from breaking the law at the very minimum?
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Same Boat
Years ago I was sitting next to the wing of a NWA Airbus and noticed no flaps and slats while turning onto the pre-takeoff areas with 2 ahead of us. I yelled for a F/A and told her we were configured wrong and may crash LIKE THE MD-80 IN DETROIT if she didnt tell the cabin crew to extend the flaps.
Well, to my shame, apparently that model of Airbus doesnt require flaps or slats. During the flight the captain was very courteous about it..
I can just imagine what would happen these days, Guantanamo for sure !
No regrets at all.
Well, to my shame, apparently that model of Airbus doesnt require flaps or slats. During the flight the captain was very courteous about it..
I can just imagine what would happen these days, Guantanamo for sure !
No regrets at all.
the lunatic fringe
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Cabin crew are an invaluable part of the crew and anyone who thinks less of them should re-think their position.
They are your eyes and ears in places you have no hope of seeing or knowing. The Cabin Crew are absolutely integral to the safety of the operation.
If cabin crew are unhappy about wing contamination, you de-ice...simple. They are part of the team and as professionals would KNOW if a wing contaminated
Does anybody REALLY know what happened on this flight? Because it strikes me that 90% of this thread is nothing more than ill informed posturing.
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the F/A's have their own weblog asking for donations to pay for their trial.
I only post the link for you all to read and not asking to donate.
http://www.helpflightattendantcrew.*************
(what about these stars?? should be dot ******** dot com)
I only post the link for you all to read and not asking to donate.
http://www.helpflightattendantcrew.*************
(what about these stars?? should be dot ******** dot com)
Paxing All Over The World
Pax speaking.
Let us presume that there was no previous acrimonious interchange between the flight and cabin crew. Let us presume that all was harmony ...
The CC observe frosting and they are used to looking at the upper side of the wings a fair amount, whilst FC tend to look at the underside (!). In suggesting that a de-ice is required, the CC would KNOW the implications of cost and possible delay.
One of the FC need only step out of their office and walk down the aisle to have the CC show them their concern and can then make a decision. So - how do they get themselves into this mess?
Not for me to speculate but US Air has completely failed to understand how much bad publicity this can generate for them. Quite apart from sorting out their CRM problem, it would have saved them a bundle in PR if they had fixed this when the crew got into Phoenix. Whilst I am not contemplating a trip to the US this year, to any US Air staff reading this, you move down the rankings. Better tell your bosses to talk to the staff. Or is that the real problem?
Let us presume that there was no previous acrimonious interchange between the flight and cabin crew. Let us presume that all was harmony ...
The CC observe frosting and they are used to looking at the upper side of the wings a fair amount, whilst FC tend to look at the underside (!). In suggesting that a de-ice is required, the CC would KNOW the implications of cost and possible delay.
One of the FC need only step out of their office and walk down the aisle to have the CC show them their concern and can then make a decision. So - how do they get themselves into this mess?
Not for me to speculate but US Air has completely failed to understand how much bad publicity this can generate for them. Quite apart from sorting out their CRM problem, it would have saved them a bundle in PR if they had fixed this when the crew got into Phoenix. Whilst I am not contemplating a trip to the US this year, to any US Air staff reading this, you move down the rankings. Better tell your bosses to talk to the staff. Or is that the real problem?
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There must be more to this story than is being said.
Maybe the Captain should have taken a look when the argument started, that would have been the end of it.
Cabin crew are good for reporting things and are always involved with CRM concerning things like this and they should be.
But since when are they taught the limitations of snow, ice or frost on the wings?
When in doubt, check it out, but if both pilots had visually inspected these wings and found them within limitations, would have been discussion over.
Maybe the Captain should have taken a look when the argument started, that would have been the end of it.
Cabin crew are good for reporting things and are always involved with CRM concerning things like this and they should be.
But since when are they taught the limitations of snow, ice or frost on the wings?
When in doubt, check it out, but if both pilots had visually inspected these wings and found them within limitations, would have been discussion over.
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Andy S
Hi, not saying that anyone 'bow' down to them and accept what they are saying is correct, but we get back to the good 'ol CRM and a polite explanation of the situation from the flight crew does not go amiss
Any 'advisory' information from the cabin is welcomed on my a/c.
And you are quite correct, nobody here has the 'full' story so we can only go by what has been 'rumoured'
Rgds
CL747
Any 'advisory' information from the cabin is welcomed on my a/c.
And you are quite correct, nobody here has the 'full' story so we can only go by what has been 'rumoured'
Rgds
CL747
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No one has posted what type aircraft this was or the limitations for this.
Poor F/O might have been doing his job and and those F/A without knowledge of the limitations took him to the cleaners!
If so no wonder he is suing in court.
But why did the Captain decide to de-ice, just to satisfy the ones in the back or maybe it did need de-icing?
More to this story folks.
I tend to side with the F/O, he knows the limitations.
Bad CRM on all counts.
Poor F/O might have been doing his job and and those F/A without knowledge of the limitations took him to the cleaners!
If so no wonder he is suing in court.
But why did the Captain decide to de-ice, just to satisfy the ones in the back or maybe it did need de-icing?
More to this story folks.
I tend to side with the F/O, he knows the limitations.
Bad CRM on all counts.
Last edited by Earl; 30th Jan 2009 at 19:10.
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For what it's worth, here is a link to a much longer and more detailed version of the story from a website called PhoenixNewTimes.com
Three US Airways Flight Attendants Are Paying the Price for Speaking Up When They Thought Their Plane Was at Risk
If I am reading this correctly, the airline and union are not supporting the F/As because of "willful misconduct" on their part. In short, after they could not get the F/O to agree to de-ice, they lied to the pilots, telling them that the pax were concerned about the ice on the wings. Only then did the flightdeck agree to de-ice. That lie appears to be the "willful misconduct."
The story says the F/As first reported the incident to the company, after landing; company called FAA; FAA investigation was inconclusive; F/O now suing F/As for defamation.
Something about this story does not pass the smell test, but since we only have press reports like this to go on, I can't figure out where the bad smell is really coming from. Apparently the F/O is not making any public statements, so who knows...
Three US Airways Flight Attendants Are Paying the Price for Speaking Up When They Thought Their Plane Was at Risk
If I am reading this correctly, the airline and union are not supporting the F/As because of "willful misconduct" on their part. In short, after they could not get the F/O to agree to de-ice, they lied to the pilots, telling them that the pax were concerned about the ice on the wings. Only then did the flightdeck agree to de-ice. That lie appears to be the "willful misconduct."
The story says the F/As first reported the incident to the company, after landing; company called FAA; FAA investigation was inconclusive; F/O now suing F/As for defamation.
Something about this story does not pass the smell test, but since we only have press reports like this to go on, I can't figure out where the bad smell is really coming from. Apparently the F/O is not making any public statements, so who knows...
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Doc
At the end of the day they may have been wrong in the way they went about convincing the flight crew to de-ice, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that the flight crew should ignore their concerns with such contempt. (As 'rumoured')
Rgds
CL747
Rgds
CL747
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Centreline
Oh, I absolutely agree.
I posted the link to the article because there seemed to be some confusion and mystery about why the airline and union were not supporting the F/As.
The "willful misconduct" -- i.e., telling a (white?) lie -- is the technicality that appears to have allowed the company and union to dodge the lawsuit mess.
I posted the link to the article because there seemed to be some confusion and mystery about why the airline and union were not supporting the F/As.
The "willful misconduct" -- i.e., telling a (white?) lie -- is the technicality that appears to have allowed the company and union to dodge the lawsuit mess.
Last edited by DocSullivan; 30th Jan 2009 at 19:20. Reason: Edited to add last line
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Starting to sound like frost on the wings and a F/A not being convinced this is within the limits of cold weather operations for some aircraft.
Good she spoke up but when the F/O explained that it was ok she should have accepted this, if still in doubt she should have voiced her concerns to the Captain.
Lying to the cockpit is never a good thing.
All credibility is out the window after this for her and the cabin crew.
Light Frost is not much of an issue, snow ice buildup is!
Good luck to the F/O, seems he had to spend some money already to defend his self.
If this is true and not more to the story he should be able to recover it as it seems he had to put out a lot to defend his self.
And deserves it!
CRM could have been much better, but for some its a lost cause.
Good she spoke up but when the F/O explained that it was ok she should have accepted this, if still in doubt she should have voiced her concerns to the Captain.
Lying to the cockpit is never a good thing.
All credibility is out the window after this for her and the cabin crew.
Light Frost is not much of an issue, snow ice buildup is!
Good luck to the F/O, seems he had to spend some money already to defend his self.
If this is true and not more to the story he should be able to recover it as it seems he had to put out a lot to defend his self.
And deserves it!
CRM could have been much better, but for some its a lost cause.
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This is a great thread, I look forward to reading the final verdict.
I would draw attention to the Kegworth crash, where the flight crew told the pax and crew that they had shut down the wrong engine, even though they had witnessed flames from the damaged engine.
In that case asking a "silly" question may have saved lives.
As flight crew its our job to operate the aircraft safely, taking account of the ground and cabin crew as they can often see things we can't but in the end its the Captain's who is in charge of the aircraft not the cabin crew and not the F/O.
$21000, im off to law school if aviation goes tits up!
I would draw attention to the Kegworth crash, where the flight crew told the pax and crew that they had shut down the wrong engine, even though they had witnessed flames from the damaged engine.
In that case asking a "silly" question may have saved lives.
As flight crew its our job to operate the aircraft safely, taking account of the ground and cabin crew as they can often see things we can't but in the end its the Captain's who is in charge of the aircraft not the cabin crew and not the F/O.
$21000, im off to law school if aviation goes tits up!
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Here lies the burning question - what is within limits.
At this stage we still don't know what a/c type is involved and therefore we don't know the 'limits'. Until then we can only 'assume' that 'no ice is good ice'. hence I advocate that the cabin crew were quite within their rights to express their concern and if said F/O chose to argue about it rather than give a rational explanation regarding limits or admit that de-icing was required then that is probably why the case has come to a head.
Suppose you could say he is skating on thin ice (I'll get my coat!!)
Rgds
CL747
At this stage we still don't know what a/c type is involved and therefore we don't know the 'limits'. Until then we can only 'assume' that 'no ice is good ice'. hence I advocate that the cabin crew were quite within their rights to express their concern and if said F/O chose to argue about it rather than give a rational explanation regarding limits or admit that de-icing was required then that is probably why the case has come to a head.
Suppose you could say he is skating on thin ice (I'll get my coat!!)
Rgds
CL747
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I think the government issue has already been decided by the FAA.
In the courts with the USA this is a civil suit for damages.
She probably will be found as not qualified to preflight or inspect wings for icing as she has had no training in such.
Years of looking at the wings don't count.
The lying to the cockpit will put her in deeper shxt.
I am not a lawyer but think she will be shelling out some bucks soon and if this story is true she should.
Down side to this is that it may put the fear of God into any other flight attendant from speaking up when really they should.
So no one really wins on this one.
Another benefit to promote CRM.
All this could have been handled better.
But I am not surprised why the company wont support her.
In the courts with the USA this is a civil suit for damages.
She probably will be found as not qualified to preflight or inspect wings for icing as she has had no training in such.
Years of looking at the wings don't count.
The lying to the cockpit will put her in deeper shxt.
I am not a lawyer but think she will be shelling out some bucks soon and if this story is true she should.
Down side to this is that it may put the fear of God into any other flight attendant from speaking up when really they should.
So no one really wins on this one.
Another benefit to promote CRM.
All this could have been handled better.
But I am not surprised why the company wont support her.
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Quote
"Another benefit to promote CRM.
All this could have been handled better.
But I am not surprised why the company wont support her."
I agree, despite my earlier post defending her.
At the end of the day this sort of incident could severely damage CRM when it could be of greater importance.
I get a strong feeling that more went on between said parties than we are led to believe.
Be interesting to see the out come.
Rgds
CL747
"Another benefit to promote CRM.
All this could have been handled better.
But I am not surprised why the company wont support her."
I agree, despite my earlier post defending her.
At the end of the day this sort of incident could severely damage CRM when it could be of greater importance.
I get a strong feeling that more went on between said parties than we are led to believe.
Be interesting to see the out come.
Rgds
CL747
Frost is a bit of an issue , my understanding is that it is not allowed as there is no real clarification in the regulations between light frost or ice on the upper wing surface of any type as per FAA regs. Find this a bit of nuisance as see a regular problem with the A330 on a short turnround after a 7 hour sector , we end up with a couple of square feet of light frost over the main u/c mounting area which doesnt melt with fuel loaded if the OAT is a little cool . Unfortunately its in full view of the pax ! Understand the need for the regs due to various accidents , and certain types have had a problem , but it is a bit of a nuisance . As an LAE in these cases i'm more concerned for my colleagues at the pointy end if someone takes a photo !!!
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Some local regulations
Canadian Aviation Regulations - Part VI, Standard 622.11
So the big question is what is the USAIR operation procedures for icing limitations on this aircraft?
So the big question is what is the USAIR operation procedures for icing limitations on this aircraft?
Last edited by Earl; 30th Jan 2009 at 21:16.
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It was mentioned earlier in the thread that cabin crew are not trained to deal with ice. Well here at BA we are advised about ice and how it affects lift every year during the CRM content of our SEP.
And personally speaking I have a PPL and a family to return home to.
What we don't do, obviously, is make the decisions. I'll speak for BA, every time that I have witnessed my colleagues contact the flight crew, and every time I have contacted the flight crew about a possible issue, they have taken the time to come and investigate and provide an explanation and reasurance.
And personally speaking I have a PPL and a family to return home to.
What we don't do, obviously, is make the decisions. I'll speak for BA, every time that I have witnessed my colleagues contact the flight crew, and every time I have contacted the flight crew about a possible issue, they have taken the time to come and investigate and provide an explanation and reasurance.